UK politics general discussion

[WillPS]

While Brexit did have an impact, I actually think the biggest factor at the last election was people couldn't face having Jeremy Corbyn as prime minister

But in 2017 40% of the voter-base could (more than Cameron managed in either of his 'won' elections, and more than Blair managed in 2005)? I'm not a Corbyn fan but it's revisionist to suggest the 2019 election was lost due to him as a person.

It was lost because they had been utterly outflanked and outplayed on Brexit, not helped by the utter hubris of the Lib Dems, beguiled at a whiff of power yet again.

 

[Mikw]

While Brexit did have an impact, I actually think the biggest factor at the last election was people couldn't face having Jeremy Corbyn as prime minister

Which is ironic because he was a genuine "leaver", as opposed to Boris who really wasn't.

 

[Alsty]

But in 2017 40% of the voter-base could (more than Cameron managed in either of his 'won' elections, and more than Blair managed in 2005)?

As I'm sure you know, the FPTP system in this country produces results like this. The percentage of votes doesn't equate to the number of seats due to the distribution of the votes across constituencies.

I'm not a Corbyn fan but it's revisionist to suggest the 2019 election was lost due to him as a person.

Johnson about twice as popular as Corbyn in 2019



And people overwhelmingly considered Corbyn a bad leader, whereas people were more favourable of Johnson



Additionally, polling showed it was leadership that was the main issue, not Brexit

 

[WillPS]

As I'm sure you know, the FPTP system in this country produces results like this. The percentage of votes doesn't equate to the number of seats due to the distribution of the votes across constituencies.

Yes, but we're not assessing the outcomes of the elections, we're assessing the claim that people couldn't contemplate Corbyn as PM - which only scans as an argument if you ignore the 2017 election.

 

[rob666]

But in 2017 40% of the voter-base could (more than Cameron managed in either of his 'won' elections, and more than Blair managed in 2005)? I'm not a Corbyn fan but it's revisionist to suggest the 2019 election was lost due to him as a person.

It was lost because they had been utterly outflanked and outplayed on Brexit, not helped by the utter hubris of the Lib Dems, beguiled at a whiff of power yet again.

I know it is anecdotal, but I have yet to find a single person I know who thought Corbyn would make a good leader of the nation.
I discuss politics a lot, with family, friends and customers...not a single one wanted Corbyn as leader.
You can fiddle with limited statistics at will, but to say Corbyn was popular, otherwise you are trying to be revisionist, is absolutely false.
He was very unpopular with the vast majority of voters, and was a major factor in the collapse of the Labour vote.

 

[Slugjc]

I said at the time with Corbyn. No personality. Great policies. Just couldn't get through. Especially when the the Tory attack dogs at the The S*n and the daily heil got going. Didn't have that spark, Easy prey for Boris.

I get the idea that we only at the start of the massive decline of Boris. In 10 years time we will all look back and go "how on earth did they fall for that!!!"

 

[Benzin]

Corbyn at the time (similarly to Starmer now) kept missing or ignoring the many Tory own goals over the years. Corbyn due to his Euroscepticism and Starmer because too busy being Tory-lite. This frustrates me because sitting on the fence just allows the nonsense to run rampant which we've seen in spades since.

It's immensely frustrating. I do think that he was popular within a niche side of the left wing, but he was certainly coming up with too many radical left wing ideas that the right wing media just didn't like.

The Antisemitic issues were a massive beat stick too.

The old "Chaos with Ed Milliband" tweet from Cameron gets funnier every day mind. Especially given the question of would Corbyn be better than Truss or Sunak? Far easier answer there.

Abbott was attacked media wise for a very different reason.

 

[WillPS]

I know it is anecdotal, but I have yet to find a single person I know who thought Corbyn would make a good leader of the nation.
I discuss politics a lot, with family, friends and customers...not a single one wanted Corbyn as leader.
You can fiddle with limited statistics at will, but to say Corbyn was popular, otherwise you are trying to be revisionist, is absolutely false.
He was very unpopular with the vast majority of voters, and was a major factor in the collapse of the Labour vote.

Not saying he was popular, I am saying the facts do not indicate Jeremy Corbyn's unpopularity is not the reason the defeat in 2019 was so catestrophic.

There are many examples through history of people who were unpopular as individuals going to outperform expectations or even win elections. Corbyn, Brown and Major to name just 3.

FWIW in hindsight I am glad that Corbyn didn't win - he would have been utterly hung by the press for imposing half the policies Johnson/Sunak did in 2020.

 

[pluk]

Abbott was attacked media wise for a very different reason.

That she showed herself repeatedly to be utterly incompetent with very poor decision making and a fairly visible nasty streak?

Corbyn and the people he surrounded himself with were unelectable to most, and it didn’t take the media to tell people that. It wasn't somebody else's fault.

Starmer and the people he has surrounded himself with certainly are not unelectable in the same way, but they are also completely anonymous at the moment. If they have big ideas they are not vocal enough about them or getting the message out. Could most people name a single person on the opposition bench? Probably not, and that is mental when they should all have so much to say about what is going on opposite them and have a clear policy for doing things better.

If there were to be an election tomorrow I have no doubt there would be a Labour win, but that would be down to the conservatives repeatedly shooting themselves in the foot and face. The dangerous thing about that is the election is not tomorrow and despite the horrific things that have gone on at the top there's a lot of time for the tories to turn around opinion about the party using fresh untarnished faces. Labour seem to be waiting for it to come to them on the basis of conservatives being awful, but they need to go and get it instead.

 

[Benzin]

Are there any untarnished Tory MPs left?

Already been through most of the leftovers who are incredibly unsuited to major roles.

Labour certainly are playing a waiting game, but given one of their MPs today sat on the fence regarding sending asylum seekers to Rwanda shows the foolishness of that angle. Should go full on the whole "safe routes for all" angle instead.

If Abbott was deemed incompetent I'm not sure what that makes the likes of Truss.

 

[Thameslink Rail]

Are there any untarnished Tory MPs left?

Sir Keir Starmer

 

[BarryZola]

Labour certainly are playing a waiting game, but given one of their MPs today sat on the fence regarding sending asylum seekers to Rwanda shows the foolishness of that angle. Should go full on the whole "safe routes for all" angle instead.

...and remember last week when I highlighted Rachel Reeves not wanting to answer a question about whether the Bank of England could have done better with regards to interest rates. And she's the shadow chancellor. Doesn't inspire much confidence really that they're any better than the current pathetic lot.

 

[Dave]

Corbyn at the time (similarly to Starmer now) kept missing or ignoring the many Tory own goals over the years. Corbyn due to his Euroscepticism and Starmer because too busy being Tory-lite. This frustrates me because sitting on the fence just allows the nonsense to run rampant which we've seen in spades since.

Starmer isn’t Tory light, he is doing exactly what you have to do to win an election in the UK.

This is what frustrates me about the left, they lack any electoral pragmatism and then attack themselves when anyone on the left shows any actual sense in winning elections.

The UK is a centrist country, if you show any sign of being on the extreme wing of any party you will not win votes, it’s not great but it’s the reality. As much as I hate them the Tory party has until recently always understood this, so they campaign to the centre and then govern to the right.

Based on Starmers past I would argue he is campaigning to the centre and will govern to the left.

But middle class left wing members have never cared about winning elections, just winning arguments, and as every time they facilitate the Tory’s winning power, and every time Tory’s win power working peoples lives get worse I really hate the entitled part of the left that participate in that idiocy.

 

[pluk]

If Abbott was deemed incompetent I'm not sure what that makes the likes of Truss.

Also incompetent? And also unelectable, unfortunately the public never got chance to tell her.

 

[Plastic Person]

Starmer isn’t Tory light, he is doing exactly what you have to do to win an election in the UK.

This is what frustrates me about the left, they lack any electoral pragmatism and then attack themselves when anyone on the left shows any actual sense in winning elections.

The UK is a centrist country, if you show any sign of being on the extreme wing of any party you will not win votes, it’s not great but it’s the reality. As much as I hate them the Tory party has until recently always understood this, so they campaign to the centre and then govern to the right.

I think the "the left eat their own" argument is pure centrist bollocks at this point. The Tories have successfully moved the dial so far to the right now that many people find themselves fighting simply for principles and dignity. I don't think Starmer will govern to the left upon winning, as I think he is centre-right. His recent disapproval and purge of those to his left within the party indicates this to me. Corbyn's refusal to play the right-wing media (aka, the media) was stubborn and foolish. Likewise, the current Labour policy of mirroring the Tories in all but incompetence, rather than offering any kind of vision of a different, more fulfilling life for average working people, is singularly uninspiring.

 

[rob666]

Starmer isn’t Tory light, he is doing exactly what you have to do to win an election in the UK.

This is what frustrates me about the left, they lack any electoral pragmatism and then attack themselves when anyone on the left shows any actual sense in winning elections.

The UK is a centrist country, if you show any sign of being on the extreme wing of any party you will not win votes, it’s not great but it’s the reality. As much as I hate them the Tory party has until recently always understood this, so they campaign to the centre and then govern to the right.

Based on Starmers past I would argue he is campaigning to the centre and will govern to the left.

But middle class left wing members have never cared about winning elections, just winning arguments, and as every time they facilitate the Tory’s winning power, and every time Tory’s win power working peoples lives get worse I really hate the entitled part of the left that participate in that idiocy.

The UK was a centrist country, and moderate.
Thatcher threw that completely out of the window, with the mantra of greed is good, and flogging off the housing stock and national industries.
There has been no shift back to the left, this is now a right wing nation, evidenced by a massive shift in the gap between rich and poor, and the collapse of the welfare state.

 

[Dave]

The UK was a centrist country, and moderate.
Thatcher threw that completely out of the window, with the mantra of greed is good, and flogging off the housing stock and national industries.
There has been no shift back to the left, this is now a right wing nation, evidenced by a massive shift in the gap between rich and poor, and the collapse of the welfare state.

It’s not that simple, it’s fiscally conservative but socially liberal.

 

[Dave]

I think the "the left eat their own" argument is pure centrist bollocks at this point. The Tories have successfully moved the dial so far to the right now that many people find themselves fighting simply for principles and dignity. I don't think Starmer will govern to the left upon winning, as I think he is centre-right. His recent disapproval and purge of those to his left within the party indicates this to me. Corbyn's refusal to play the right-wing media (aka, the media) was stubborn and foolish. Likewise, the current Labour policy of mirroring the Tories in all but incompetence, rather than offering any kind of vision of a different, more fulfilling life for average working people, is singularly uninspiring.

Sorry double post but I can’t get them to merge.

The left have always eaten their own and they continue to do so. Starmer was in his youth a Marxist, for certain he has shifted as he grew up but he is still to the left.

He purged the people who continued with antisemitism, he also enforced collective responsibility of his shadow cabinet.

The Labour Party are not mirroring the Tory’s, but they are focusing the message and that’s what you have to do to win elections. The fact is the Labour Party are not in government and have no reason to have any detailed policies at the moment as we are not in an election campaign, it’s baffling that people seem to want Labour to have fully costed guarenteed pledges 1.5yrs before an election has to happen but make no similar demand on the current government. Judge Labour when they publish a manifesto, which will be when an election is announced, it only comes then as that’s the only time the civil service are given permission to provide the opposition with details on the countries current finances.

One thing I will say is Starmer is very cautious, sometimes more than I like but that’s his style. He’s an underpromised overdelivered personality and that’s not politically exciting but if I’m honest I am done with exciting politics.

It continues to be annoying that people on the left continue to want to be in opposition, I can only assume those that do like to attack labour from the left have enough money to survive another Tory government, the fact they care so less for those that can’t afford to live through 5 more years of the Tory’s I think is disgusting.

 

[pluk]

The fact is the Labour Party are not in government and have no reason to have any detailed policies at the moment as we are not in an election campaign, it’s baffling that people seem to want Labour to have fully costed guarenteed pledges 1.5yrs before an election has to happen but make no similar demand on the current government.

I think you are overstating what people are asking for there. I have no idea what current Labour stand for? More or less tax, more or less welfare state, privatisation or nationalisation, save or destroy the BBC, etc etc. The basicscs of what they want, not necessarily the minutiae of how they are going to do it. As they don't appear to hold the government to account for anything beyond partygate it is hard to know what they are. No party should be waiting until campaign time to have any purpose or personality.

 

[Dave]

I think you are overstating what people are asking for there. I have no idea what current Labour stand for? More or less tax, more or less welfare state, privatisation or nationalisation, save or destroy the BBC, etc etc. The basicscs of what they want, not necessarily the minutiae of how they are going to do it. As they don't appear to hold the government to account for anything beyond partygate it is hard to know what they are. No party should be waiting until campaign time to have any purpose or personality.

They have announced all of that:

- Less tax for working people when economically viable, close tax loop holes that rich people and corporations use.

- More welfare state

- More nationalisation (they have announced a nationally owned energy provider will be created and said all train operations would return to national operations as contracts end or fail).

- They have stated they are for the BBC and maintaining the license fee.

I appreciate the right wing media don’t help them communicate all of that but it’s all been announced.