UK Politics General Discussion

[Dave]

Hey, notice how the government sent out a deterrent to rioting by actually sending people to prison, then people stopped rioting. Who would have thought it? Looks like proper sentences do act as a deterrent after-all

Saying that it’s just been announced 70% of the people arrested for rioting already had a past criminal conviction so their previous incarceration didn’t put them off did it .

Plus no one has said prison isn’t a key part of the criminal justice system, just that we over use it and countries that have a more mixed approach have lower crime rates.

 

[BarryZola]

Conviction or custodial sentence? Big difference.

Anyway, it was suggested that prison isn't really much of a deterrent, but it has been proven over the past couple of days that it actually is. They don't call me the Oracle of Oldbury for nothing. Well, they don't actually call me that, it's usually something else

 

[jon81uk]

This cartoon seems relevant


From: https://x.com/davewalker/status/1821239539806908591?s=46

 

[Dave]

Conviction or custodial sentence? Big difference.

Anyway, it was suggested that prison isn't really much of a deterrent, but it has been proven over the past couple of days that it actually is. They don't call me the Oracle of Oldbury for nothing. Well, they don't actually call me that, it's usually something else

Norway has the lowest recidivism rate in the world, it incarcerates fewer people, its prisons are smaller (though mostly high security). Prisons are important but they are clearly not the solution.

 

[Benzin]

What was great to see is the amount of anti-fascist protesters out in full force.

Poor scum in Brighton had to be protected by police then ferried out the area. Shame.

 

[Islander]

This cartoon seems relevant


From: https://x.com/davewalker/status/1821239539806908591?s=46

See, I don’t think these kind of posts are that helpful. Not because I disagree or don’t believe, far far from.

It doesn’t actually give any reason, any analysis, any sources. So, if you are of the incorrect belief that migrants on small boats cause problems, you’re gonna look at this and go “meh, that’s just woke views being forced onto us yet again”. It’s really not gonna change anyone’s mind.

It’s preaching to the converted lol.

 

[Slugjc]

The sentences handed out will have put the vast majority of them off. I have no doubt about that. @BarryZola is correct, don't be too dismissive of the power of jail time.

The greater debate needs to be had on how so much misinformation was spread on social media. Not only that. False information being spread by the RT honourable MP for Clacton. That LBC interview was car crash. To admitting to using Andrew Tate, as a source of news to getting shirty when questioned on how he phrased a post. The simple thing to do Nigel, was wait for the police to disclose information. Not start asking leading questions. The riots can't be fully blamed on Nige. Him and 30p lee certainly don't help the situation.

 

[jon81uk]

See, I don’t think these kind of posts are that helpful. Not because I disagree or don’t believe, far far from.

It doesn’t actually give any reason, any analysis, any sources. So, if you are of the incorrect belief that migrants on small boats cause problems, you’re gonna look at this and go “meh, that’s just woke views being forced onto us yet again”. It’s really not gonna change anyone’s mind.

It’s preaching to the converted lol.

I agree with you that it likely is preaching to the converted and only those who already understand that will really see it, but no sources/citations is generally because its a cartoon, not a full article.

Although the "nah its the illegals" people wouldn't believe an article any more than a cartoon. Show them figures on how the previous government didn't invest in housing and the response would just be "but the ones they did build are full of immigrants".
I would hope that people discussing things on this forum though would beleieve properly cited facts though.

 

[Dave]

The sentences handed out will have put the vast majority of them off. I have no doubt about that. @BarryZola is correct, don't be too dismissive of the power of jail time.

The greater debate needs to be had on how so much misinformation was spread on social media. Not only that. False information being spread by the RT honourable MP for Clacton. That LBC interview was car crash. To admitting to using Andrew Tate, as a source of news to getting shirty when questioned on how he phrased a post. The simple thing to do Nigel, was wait for the police to disclose information. Not start asking leading questions. The riots can't be fully blamed on Nige. Him and 30p lee certainly don't help the situation.

Again no one is saying it isn’t having a deterrent effect (I said it in my first post today). But BarryZola was referring back to a previous debate on the effectiveness of prisons in reducing crime.

All the evidence suggests they are needed but that countries with higher levels of imprisonment for crimes have higher rates of reoffending. That’s not opinion that’s counting.

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

The sentences handed out will have put the vast majority of them off. I have no doubt about that. @BarryZola is correct, don't be too dismissive of the power of jail time.

Correlation doesn't always equal causation, there are some other factors we should consider toward the contribution of no riots last night.

• The police have a proportionate and prepared response. Initially these riots took the police by surprise, the lack of an initial response meant that the police appeared overpowered. It's easier to riot at a building that isn't already protected by the police waiting for a fight.
• Timing. The initial excitement for the riots, taking place over several days now, has worn off. Instigators have already been dealt with. People have things to do in the week, they have more free time over the weekend.
• Weather. Hot and dry weather lends itself to riots. People like being outside. They'll have been enjoying the weather all day, getting slowly inebriated, before someone gets them excited.
• Debunking. Enough time has now passed for information about the initial attack in Southport to have embedded itself in the general conscious. The initial rage has dissipated.
• Organised peaceful counter protestors. Various groups have now managed to rally around support to peacefully defend and protest the actions of rioters. We're now seeing more counter protestors, because it's fresh and exciting for them, at the rail end of the initial riots. You may think twice about instigating violent action if you feel outnumbered, or if the crowd isn't with you.

On the subject of the convictions and sentences, as @Dave already highlighted, 70% of those convicted already had an unspent criminal conviction. These people will have been handed custodial sentences. The 30% of rioters without a criminal record history, have been handed suspended sentences, fines and community orders. The threat of prison wasn't enough to stop people who have already been inside from committing a crime, nor was it enough to prevent the other rioters.

Do I think the speed at which the justice system has acted, in this case, contributed to the slow of violent action? Yes. Do I think it's the actual sentencing that's been a major factor? No. Quick arrests, quick charges and quick sentencing is enough of a deterrent, it doesn't strictly matter what the person got. The show, the presentation and the pageantry, as so often in life, is more effective at convincing someone of something, rather than the mechanism.

 

[rob666]

While it is good that all these thugs have been fasttracked into jail, what about the poor victims in the general justice system who will have to wait even longer in the queue for justice because the thugs have in effect "pushed in".
The wait for justice for many has been long, and now likely longer.
Shooting, or foot removal, is quicker.

 

[pluk]

While it is good that all these thugs have been fasttracked into jail, what about the poor victims in the general justice system who will have to wait even longer in the queue for justice because the thugs have in effect "pushed in".
The wait for justice for many has been long, and now likely longer.
Shooting, or foot removal, is quicker.

That hasn't really happened. Everyone who is remanded is heard the next day, and if a guilty plea is entered sentencing can occur on the same day, as has happened here. Others entering not guilty pleas and going to trial have variously been held on remand or granted bail for months when their case will be heard. They have joined the queue with everyone else.

 

[rob666]

Always good to get the informed opinion on mere mate...cheers.
Still say amputation is quicker and cheaper.

 

[pluk]

A few bits from the last few days....

- there are no extra police officers to deal with disorder, there are the same number of officers working a ridiculous number of hours. In fairness the wording from the new administration has been much better than the previous when selling this to the public. I am tired.

- just like the London riots, the initial disorder comes from a very tiny minority with a group that is genuinely angry, even if that anger is misplaced, and in the heat of the moment it all kicks off and spreads with a herd mentality. Some others then jump in for some simple personal gain looting. Just like the London riots the subsequent arranged or preplanned disturbances come to nothing as the strength of feeling outside of that moment doesnt exist. Loads of people turn up to these locations, but they are all there to see if something happens, not to do something themselves, so they get bored and go home.

- two tier policing is not a thing, and its frustrating to have stupid people with something else that doesnt exist to be angry at.

- lots of views here of prison. I'm not going to say what we have is particularly great but in terms of alternative options it's been implied here they should be used instead, the truth is they mostly are used in the first instance and it's actually quite hard to get jail time.
When will you go to jail? If you commit the most serious of offences (terrorism, murder, rape, the most serious assaults) where the ultimate punishment is right for the sake of punishment as well as rehabilitation, or if your freedom directly puts others at risk of serious harm (domestics, stalkers/targeted persistent offending, drug dealers, persistent dangerous driving) where the physical barrier of a wall around stops others getting hurt and rehabilitation attempts can work towards safe release. I find both of these hard to argue against.
For other offences, even quite serious ones, and especially for juveniles, there are huge huge opportunities to not go to jail and to stay out of the criminal justice system entirely.
Most will get options of community resolution and cautions to consider and change their behaviour, a warning shot if you like. They haven't been near a court room, let alone a prison. Many do not reoffend from this point.
Most, if they reoffend or start their offending from a more serious point, will be given court orders to work with probation in community rehabilitation or be given the opportunity to show they will not reoffend in a timeframe. This will be alongside schemes such as drugs and alcohol support and counselling, council support with housing can come in here, social services too. Many do not reoffend from this point.
Most, if they reoffend from this point, will still be given an opportunity not to go to jail, with community service or suspended sentences that only activate on further conviction. Many do not reoffend from this point.
After that, what are we as a society supposed to do with the crininals? If the threat of prison is not a real one it stops being a deterrent at all.
I think what we do with detainees in prison to rehabilitate is the key issue, not who we are sending there in the first place.

Anyway, a few hours sleep before I'm back at it...

 

[jon81uk]

I think what we do with detainees in prison to rehabilitate is the key issue, not who we are sending there in the first place.

I think this is the big issue as well as what Goose said before about what happens when offenders get released in regards to housing, income and other issues. Yes there will always be some who can't be helped, but there are some who with proper support in prison and afterwards may change.

 

[pluk]

I think this is the big issue as well as what Goose said before about what happens when offenders get released in regards to housing, income and other issues. Yes there will always be some who can't be helped, but there are some who with proper support in prison and afterwards may change.

Absolutely, it could and should be better, but that's not to say it isn't there at the moment. There are support packages, it does include housing, employment support, drug and alcohol support, and people do change. But it's also with threat, if you reoffend on a suspended sentence or don't comply with your conditions, back you go, and surely that has to be right too?

There are certainly people who are set up to fail on release though, and that shouldn't happen.
I'd say the biggest issue is actually mental health services for both prison release and pre-sentencing intervention, the support there is woeful.

 

[GaryH]

I see some of the rioters, including one who punched a police officer has been sentenced within a few days and is, rightfully, off to prison.

However, I also read that the group of Asian men who kicked off in the airport a few weeks ago, attacking two police officers and breaking the nose of a woman police officer have not been sentenced, and are out on bail.

Two tier policing or not, perhaps its things like this which make people feel like there is.

 

[pluk]

Two tier policing or not, its things like this which make people feel like there is.

Nice bit of selective data there. How about we use the other 2 white British rioters that are also out on bail from the same court on the same day and see whether that is also an indication of two tier policing?

People's complete ignorance of the legal system is not a defence against hateful bigotry. None of the criminal justice system is a secret, and it doesn't take much googling to educate yourself.

 

[BarryZola]

The problem with comparing criminality in one country versus another is that no 2 countries are the same. Maybe a population gets so far down the road of lawlessness that for a period of time you need to use prison sentences as a deterrent until the culture is changed, then you can get on with the softly softly approaches and actually changing society from the ground up so that people don't grow into adulthood thinking that living a life of crime is acceptable. My argument is that in OUR country at the moment the softly softly approach hasn't been working for a while and so people need the deterrent of losing their liberty until such a time that the culture of anti-social behaviour is changed. We're not Norway. But yeah, you've seen how short sharp shocks have deterred people in the last couple of days.

 

[GaryH]

Nice bit of selective data there. How about we use the other 2 white British rioters that are also out on bail from the same court on the same day and see whether that is also an indication of two tier policing?

People's complete ignorance of the legal system is not a defence against hateful bigotry. None of the criminal justice system is a secret, and it doesn't take much googling to educate yourself.

I'm not saying I believe there is myself, what I am saying is that why are those men who broke the nose of the female police officer not in jail just as quickly as one of the protestors who punched a police officer in the face? And perhaps it is things like this where people do feel there is a two tier system. We've all seen the phone videos of them attacking the officers in the airport, and it was just as violent as some of the scenes we saw this week.