UK Politics General Discussion

[Benzin]

There was never going to be a long honeymoon, but people were kidding themselves if they thought a new government would instantly fix the current issues. From sounds of it things were even worse in some areas than were believed.

Probably also doesn't help that they're on summer break. So there's no real news/decisions being made currently.

You'd need to have a breakdown of the various aspects to see where the drop in popularity is. But it's no surprise it would happen, especially with the riots taking place.

 

[BarryZola]

I can't comment about ongoing court cases, or the individual circumstances in the case that you have cited. I can, however, point you in the direction of the guidance surrounding bail: https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/bail

Everyone in this country is guaranteed the legal right to bail, unless one of the exemptions apply. If someone hasn't been granted bail, and has been remanded into custody, there will be a legal reason as to why. No one has "remanded them anyway".

Well, I don't have the time to investigate that particular guys history and his case, but I would assume that as this appears to be a one week special of getting people locked up as quickly as possible that the rulebook may have slightly gone out of the window temporarily to some degree. The simple fact really is that some guy has been involved in one of these protests (probably caught on camera) but has denied his charges but the judge has decided that he can sit in jail for 22 days anyway before his next court appearance, even if he's innocent like he says he is. Then you've got another person who has been caught on film seriously assaulting the police but he's allowed to sit at home awaiting any trial. Not a great or fair look really, but I will give you the fact that without investigating further we don't know if he was already known to the police as a danger to the public or whatever other reason he may have been remanded. Will hazard a guess that they've just chucked him in prison with all the others anyway though

 

[GaryH]

On a side note; is it me, or does it seem like the new government's popularity is really decreasing?

The winter fuel payment decision was not received well at all, with fears it could plunge a number of pensioners into poverty, and some are fearing a tax raid come the winter. I also feel like Starmer's response to the riots has not been received very well.

Is it just me, or does anyone else feel like the shine is coming off the new government in the minds of much of the population? I fear this could lead to people concluding that "Labour are just as incompetent as the Tories" and voting in a Reform government for "change" in 2029...

On the other hand, perhaps it comes from the fact that The Telegraph seems to make up half of my recommended news articles on my iPad's news app, and they never seem to have a good word to say about Labour...

Not a surprise - many were worried as to what Labour would do for the elderly and pensioners given their past history. I believe approx 5,000 pensioners died from the cold last winter due to not being able to afford the heating, and sadly, many may have been eligible for pension credits but didn't know or were not aware how to get them. And that's with the winter fuel payment. Lets hope we don't get a cold winter this year.

4,950 excess winter deaths caused by cold homes last winter

Excess winter deaths have increased as records show that when winter temperatures drop below 4 degrees, deaths caused by cold homes increase.

www.endfuelpoverty.org.uk

People seem to forget as you get older you feel the cold more, and many may have illnesses or are dealing with cancer meaning they need the heating on all the time. Dropping this allowance was never going to go down well for those just about getting by as it is. Like I said before, it could have been done a lot better.

I was also reading about Labour talking with the Canadians yesterday about how they manage their pensions and are considering bringing a similar model to the UK:

Labour considers adopting Canadian pension model for UK

Rachel Reeves met with Canada's top pension bosses, hinting at potential UK pension reforms

www.benefitsandpensionsmonitor.com

Full details are sketchy at the moment but many (myself included) fear our pension pots under Labour and what they may do with the money people have built up over the years ready for retirement.

As for Starmer, he was never popular to start with. Its unfortunate the riots and stabbings of the 3 children happened so soon after he came into power, and I don't think he has handled them particularly well. I would have liked to have seen him act a bit more genuine and human as opposed to his robotic presentation we get from him all the time. Someone did a meme of him with the Daleks the other day where he was "Exstarminating" people, was quite funny. Some question whether he will still be in power by the end of the year.

Either way, I don't think people were expecting much from Labour, with many analysts saying there was very little difference between them and the Tories. While I feel hopeful of some positive changes being made by the fresh faces in power, I am also very apprehensive of what may lie around the corner.

 

[BarryZola]

I expect this guy to be imprisoned by next week all things being equal...

Labour councillor Ricky Jones arrested after allegedly telling protest 'fascists need to have throats cut'

Police in London have held a man in his 50s on suspicion of "encouraging murder" after a Labour councillor allegedly called for far-right protesters' throats to be "cut".

news.sky.com

 

[rob666]

Now...
1. That is a little more extreme than just cutting rioters feet off.
2. I am not in any form of position of responsibility, so can feel free to make stupid comments.

OK, in moderation, perhaps we can just go a toe at a time...gives scope for repeat offenders then.

 

[Dave]

On a side note; is it me, or does it seem like the new government's popularity is really decreasing?

The winter fuel payment decision was not received well at all, with fears it could plunge a number of pensioners into poverty, and some are fearing a tax raid come the winter. I also feel like Starmer's response to the riots has not been received very well.

Is it just me, or does anyone else feel like the shine is coming off the new government in the minds of much of the population? I fear this could lead to people concluding that "Labour are just as incompetent as the Tories" and voting in a Reform government for "change" in 2029...

On the other hand, perhaps it comes from the fact that The Telegraph seems to make up half of my recommended news articles on my iPad's news app, and they never seem to have a good word to say about Labour...

Regarding the riots the impact on the government reputation depends on which bubble you are sitting in, the people who never liked Starmer are moaning, the ones who do are praising him, weirdly Dan Hodges of the Daily Mail is singing his praises.

As for the winter fuel duty and the likely tax changes in October you always do your most unpopular policies early in your term, people have short attention spans so by the time another election comes round they have either forgotten or realised it didn’t really impact them.

 

[Dave]

Not a surprise - many were worried as to what Labour would do for the elderly and pensioners given their past history. I believe approx 5,000 pensioners died from the cold last winter due to not being able to afford the heating, and sadly, many may have been eligible for pension credits but didn't know or were not aware how to get them. And that's with the winter fuel payment. Lets hope we don't get a cold winter this year.

4,950 excess winter deaths caused by cold homes last winter

Excess winter deaths have increased as records show that when winter temperatures drop below 4 degrees, deaths caused by cold homes increase.

www.endfuelpoverty.org.uk

People seem to forget as you get older you feel the cold more, and many may have illnesses or are dealing with cancer meaning they need the heating on all the time. Dropping this allowance was never going to go down well for those just about getting by as it is. Like I said before, it could have been done a lot better.

I was also reading about Labour talking with the Canadians yesterday about how they manage their pensions and are considering bringing a similar model to the UK:

Labour considers adopting Canadian pension model for UK

Rachel Reeves met with Canada's top pension bosses, hinting at potential UK pension reforms

www.benefitsandpensionsmonitor.com

Full details are sketchy at the moment but many (myself included) fear our pension pots under Labour and what they may do with the money people have built up over the years ready for retirement.

As for Starmer, he was never popular to start with. Its unfortunate the riots and stabbings of the 3 children happened so soon after he came into power, and I don't think he has handled them particularly well. I would have liked to have seen him act a bit more genuine and human as opposed to his robotic presentation we get from him all the time. Someone did a meme of him with the Daleks the other day where he was "Exstarminating" people, was quite funny. Some question whether he will still be in power by the end of the year.

Either way, I don't think people were expecting much from Labour, with many analysts saying there was very little difference between them and the Tories. While I feel hopeful of some positive changes being made by the fresh faces in power, I am also very apprehensive of what may lie around the corner.

Sorry double post but people who died from the cold would have qualified for the fuel allowance, you are right many elderly people don’t realise they qualify for credit but Labour governments tend to advertise peoples rights better than Tory governments.

As for the exploration of the Canadian model it appears that it works better than the existing UK model so what is your concern?

Based on your memes you are seeing I suspect your social media bubble is very much aligned to an anti-Labour sentiment, all the memes I have been seeing have been pretty positive (almost certainly because social media algorithms made that choice) so never trust your social media content as a source for public opinion no matter which side of the fence you sit.

 

[BarryZola]

I've got to be honest I think they've dealt with the riots pretty well since they started. Very happy with the swift justice, although I wish it would be possible to continue to hand out proper sentences as a matter of course instead of just for the next week or two (yeah, I know, we havn't got enough prisons). I can't say I remember Labour doing anything that has particularly annoyed me so far. But, I do have low expectations for any government nowadays so I don't really expect too much.

 

[jon81uk]

Not a surprise - many were worried as to what Labour would do for the elderly and pensioners given their past history.

You mean past history like introducing the Winter fuel payment back in 1997 when Labour under Blair/Brown first came to power.

 

[Matt.GC]

On a side note; is it me, or does it seem like the new government's popularity is really decreasing?

The winter fuel payment decision was not received well at all, with fears it could plunge a number of pensioners into poverty, and some are fearing a tax raid come the winter. I also feel like Starmer's response to the riots has not been received very well.

Is it just me, or does anyone else feel like the shine is coming off the new government in the minds of much of the population? I fear this could lead to people concluding that "Labour are just as incompetent as the Tories" and voting in a Reform government for "change" in 2029...

On the other hand, perhaps it comes from the fact that The Telegraph seems to make up half of my recommended news articles on my iPad's news app, and they never seem to have a good word to say about Labour...

Citation needed.

Who is saying the government's popularity is decreasing more in comparison to other new governments that have been in power for just a single month?

How do you know that utter misinformation around the winter fuel payment changes was not well received at all?

What polls suggest, after just a single month in power, that Reform have a chance of winning a general election that's probably going to be held in 5 years time?

How do you feel Starmers response to the riots hasn't been good enough? What did you want/expect him to do that he didn't?

My fear is that the answer to all these questions is that you're being bombarded by stuff from digital algorithms. The new government was likely never as popular as your feeds would have suggested a couple of weeks ago, but is not as unpopular as your feeds are suggesting now. A month in just way too early to be having such a discussion.

Not a surprise - many were worried as to what Labour would do for the elderly and pensioners given their past history. I believe approx 5,000 pensioners died from the cold last winter due to not being able to afford the heating, and sadly, many may have been eligible for pension credits but didn't know or were not aware how to get them. And that's with the winter fuel payment. Lets hope we don't get a cold winter this year.

4,950 excess winter deaths caused by cold homes last winter

Excess winter deaths have increased as records show that when winter temperatures drop below 4 degrees, deaths caused by cold homes increase.

www.endfuelpoverty.org.uk

People seem to forget as you get older you feel the cold more, and many may have illnesses or are dealing with cancer meaning they need the heating on all the time. Dropping this allowance was never going to go down well for those just about getting by as it is. Like I said before, it could have been done a lot better.

I was also reading about Labour talking with the Canadians yesterday about how they manage their pensions and are considering bringing a similar model to the UK:

Labour considers adopting Canadian pension model for UK

Rachel Reeves met with Canada's top pension bosses, hinting at potential UK pension reforms

www.benefitsandpensionsmonitor.com

Full details are sketchy at the moment but many (myself included) fear our pension pots under Labour and what they may do with the money people have built up over the years ready for retirement.

As for Starmer, he was never popular to start with. Its unfortunate the riots and stabbings of the 3 children happened so soon after he came into power, and I don't think he has handled them particularly well. I would have liked to have seen him act a bit more genuine and human as opposed to his robotic presentation we get from him all the time. Someone did a meme of him with the Daleks the other day where he was "Exstarminating" people, was quite funny. Some question whether he will still be in power by the end of the year.

Either way, I don't think people were expecting much from Labour, with many analysts saying there was very little difference between them and the Tories. While I feel hopeful of some positive changes being made by the fresh faces in power, I am also very apprehensive of what may lie around the corner.

So, how much is your monthly Telegraph subscription again? They'll scratch any anti-labour itch you have for as little as £24.99 a month at the moment! Or, if you prefer, you can get plenty of misinformation on social media for absolutely free!

 

[GaryH]

You mean past history like introducing the Winter fuel payment back in 1997 when Labour under Blair/Brown first came to power.

Absolutely Jon. And if I recall it was also in 1997 Brown also messed up and raided the pension pots of millions of pensioners.

@Matt.GC - you know what, I have actually never read the Telegraph and certainly don’t subscribe to it so I have no idea how much it costs, or even its content.

 

[Benzin]

From: https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1821614200944521265


Definitely good to see more being done about those posting online.

 

[GaryH]

Hmm this is interesting, many on Twitter saying that access to the Police website has now been blocked for anyone outside the UK.


From: https://x.com/stillgray/status/1821674221723935042?s=46

 

[Dave]

Hmm this is interesting, many on Twitter saying that access to the Police website has now been blocked for anyone outside the UK.


From: https://x.com/stillgray/status/1821674221723935042?s=46

Foreign bots where flooding the system with fake crime reports so I think they have temporarily locked it down until they can sort the problem.

 

[pluk]

Blimey, it's like some people are actively trying to not understand how the world works. I'm not going to go on a quote aramgedon, but there's some real silliness and inequal comparisons in the last day.

The bail act is a published legal document, it's not long or particularly complicated. Read it. If you can't be bothered to read it it is probably very silly to have a strong opinion on its application.

Two tier policing is a nonsense term and you aren't proving it's existence using two fairly incomparable examples while ignoring the thousands of examples which disprove your point.
Basically everything the police do is risk management using the information available for that particular case, so you could say there is infinity tier policing. No two cases are the same. You aren't even looking at the same type of bail, with pre charge police bail meaning the evidence hasn't been reviewed by the prosicutor to decide whether with all the facts (not a 2 min youtube video) there is a reasonable prospect of prosecution, and post charge court bail where the evidence has been reviewed and a realistic prospect of prosecution has been identified.

- You are charged with rioting, the threat of riot is ongoing, if you are released you are likely to riot. Risk is high. Remand.

- You are arrested and interviewed for assault on police. A police officer is under investigation for the their actions in the incident. It's a drunken mess with the officer only targeted due to the uniform (they won't be personally targetted), and presumably nothing to indicate a particular risk to others. You don't have previous for failing to answer bail or offending on bail. Risk is low. Bail.

It's really very simple. Remand is not a punishment, it's a risk management tool. For clarity I have no knowledge of any of these cases outside of what is in the media.

----------

Someone said police and CPS 30 days from bail to progress case and decide charge, looks like a misinterpretation of am old version of the bail act. Initial bail is authorised at 3 months, can be extended by various ranks of police then magistrates court indefinitely (but always with justification), until conclusion of investigation. While CPS are reviewing that clock stops too, with no legal defined constraint on their work. So you won't be seeing all these cases resolved in that timeframe.

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

Someone said police and CPS 30 days from bail to progress case and decide charge, looks like a misinterpretation of am old version of the bail act. Initial bail is authorised at 3 months, can be extended by various ranks of police then magistrates court indefinitely (but always with justification), until conclusion of investigation. While CPS are reviewing that clock stops too, with no legal defined constraint on their work. So you won't be seeing all these cases resolved in that timeframe.

It was me and I got the figure slightly wrong by two days. I was referring to the 2017 Policing and Crime Act, which introduced a new statutory regime governing police bail without charge. The Act established that initially the police can only bail a person for 28 days, although this could be extended by a senior police officer to a total of three months, and thereafter it could be further extended by a magistrates’ court, ultimately indefinitely.

28 day pre-charge bail limit comes into force

Government introduces new pre-charge bail limit of 28 days as part of the Policing and Crime Act, which comes into effect today (Monday 3 April).

www.gov.uk

This has been superseded and extended with the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022, which extends the pre-charge initial bail period to 3 months amongst other things (which I, embarrassingly, had missed).

 

[pluk]

It was me and I got the figure slightly wrong by two days.

Well, 2 years and 2 days!

Nothing meaningfully changed in that bail act amendment, in terms of how a person or case is treated. It was more a shifting of the timeframes of authorities and to prevent a person being inconvenienced quite as much by the moving of the initial bail date, which could only be one month and unrealistic for the vast majority of bail cases.

 

[Matt.GC]

2-Tier policing is a conspiracy theory, designed to incite idiots.

Social Media is what we need to be having the "honest debate" about. This problem has been with us for 2 decades now and it's getting worse, having AI encroaching as well. There are huge swaths of people across the globe who are steered by algorithms where the truth gets blurred. And it's not necessarily stupid people either, if you're being bombarded with stuff, it's easy to get swept in and manipulated.

Some people with prejudices have always, and will always, choose to be radicalised and don't care when presented with facts. But I've seen people get sucked in accidentally, and just a scroll to the right on my phone to my Google feed, I can see how it happens. Other than being a user of YouTube, I've made a conscious decision to stay away from social media and I feel my life is better without it, with this Forum being about as close as I get. But my partner is the opposite, and it's not uncommon for me to have to fact check her, even over innocent stuff.

The BBC, and news coverage derived from ITN or Sky as the primary news gathering agencies has to be factual as it's governed by law. Obviously Reuters as well. But I don't believe anything until one of those (or an agency that has used one of those as a source) has reported it, or I've seen it with my own eyes. If I read something interesting, I often search for a credible source of it's something important.

As misinformation is a worsening problem, I don't know what the solution is? Is it education? Do we need legislation? I don't know, but something has to change. We're not just putting democracy at risk, as seen in America with the storming of the capitol building, riots in France, or riots on our own streets, but we're leaving ourselves open to manipulation from foreign enemies. It's not just your Tommy Robinson's, Andrew Tate's, and Elon Musks of this world that are amassing power and influence, but Russian state owned RT was also peddling the same conspiracy theories earlier in the week.

 

[Squiggs]

I think it's the disinformation that is the issue that needs to be tackled. (i.e the deliberate spreading of falsehoods)

A lot of the misinformation that circulates is a symptom of the problem that would sort itself out quite quickly if the disinformation was cut off.

Focus on moderating the Nigel Farages and Elon Musks of the world and then there'd be less false information to repost.

 

[GaryH]

Which raises an interesting question - why is Elon Musk getting involved in UK politics anyway?