UK Politics General Discussion

[GooseOnTheLoose]

The Telegraph leans very pro-Tory, whereas outlets like The Guardian lean very pro-Labour... I'm never quite sure what sources to trust to report the true facts rather than a biased version of the facts.

The Guardian leans left but it keeps any bias, or commentary, to the opinion columns. They're also, crucially, not politically aligned to any one party and are more than happy to give Labour / Green / Lib Dem a full going over, no punches held back.

The Times is similar in this respect, albeit right leaning, although it's no longer editorially independent from Murdoch.

 

[Benzin]

I’m too afraid to say how I really feel about it for fear of being locked up by Starmers Ingsoc Thought Police.

Who would've thought that would be consequences for spouting racist bile on the Internet for those who have been arrested?

 

[GaryH]

Who would've thought that would be consequences for spouting racist bile on the Internet for those who have been arrested?

Absolutely - look out Elon Musk you might be next (should he come to the UK, which is highly doubtful, given his thoughts on the country now)

 

[pluk]

I'm never quite sure what sources to trust to report the true facts rather than a biased version of the facts.

No source is without editorial influence, and others will disagree, but in general the BBC is fairly well balanced.

There's a great bit of commentary on the Torygraph situation, bias through ownership, government influence, and how the BBC tempers the extremities of bias which you see in other countries. From around 36 mins, worth a listen.

Check out Matthew Perry & The Dark Hollywood Underbelly from The Rest Is Entertainment on Amazon Music.

https://music.amazon.co.uk/podcasts/14660586-93a3-4031-9aac-8a26990d693f/episodes/b15fb5cf-da3c-43a6-8bb4-39d43a61dbb6/THE-REST-IS-ENTERTAINMENTMATTHEW-PERRY--THE-DARK-HOLLYWOOD-UNDERBELLY?ref=dm_sh_YblPzktG2bN2zyhJK8nJa6RyQ

 

[rob666]

Lots of interviews on the tv and radio about the fasttrack of rioters causing much conflict within the criminal justice system...as expected!
After earlier discussion, where this was disputed, queuejumping of rioters through the justice system is causing serious delays in criminal justice in most other cases.
Barristers on both sides kicking off at the inappropriate nature of this "justice", if you do some things wrong, you get speedy justice, but for many people in the system, including many victims and witnesses, you have to wait extra, because the thugs have been prioritised for "justice".
This, simply, is not just.

There is no slack in the system, there hasn't been for years, and this "swift justice" means no justice in other cases.
Foot removal would have been quicker, stop them running riot.

 

[BarryZola]

Yes, I see that judges have been told to not send people to prison (well, only the very most dangerous of offenders). This isn't justice, this is just a lottery of when your case arrives at court. How many new proper prisons have they announced that they've started building to deal with this pressing issue?

 

[rob666]

The tories, and Labour before them, knew the absolute shithole overcrowded state of the prisons for decades before.
This is as bad as it has been, but things have been shockingly poor since I did my degree, all those decades ago.

No votes in prisons apparently, despite law and order being a "priority".
And a grand a week for each and every one remember, out of your taxes.
So if they end up locking up a thousand, that is a million quid a week for a couple of years.

 

[BarryZola]

That is supposing that they are not a significant cost to society in benefits and the aftermath of crime and in countless other ways when on the outside. It's not zero versus £1000.

 

[IanB]

How many new proper prisons have they announced that they've started building to deal with this pressing issue?

It’s not just as simple to say build more prisons. No one wants a prison built around the corner from them, just like no one wants a new railway or road built through their back garden.

Then you have the time to build them, and then you need to train and hire additional staff.

If it takes ten years to build a new prison and train staff, What do you do to solve the problem today?

It’s the same with all public services, we need to start planning for ten years in the future so the services can handle future requirements.

And to do this, we need to raise taxes as it requires more money.

So as a government you have to do lots of unpopular decisions to solve the problem, which makes people not want to vote for you and vote for the party which makes lots of promises but can’t only deliver a fraction of them.

 

[pluk]

After earlier discussion, where this was disputed, queuejumping of rioters through the justice system is causing serious delays in criminal justice in most other cases.

What was reprted on the earlier discussion was the cases of people being remanded for an offence then being dealt with at court the next day, as all remand cases are. Some of these were giluilty plea and sentenced that day, some were not guilty and remanded or bailed for a court date in the future, as all remand cases are. No different to any other route through the criminal justice system.

I've not seen the reported outrage you refer to, got any links? I'm genuinely curious about it. We've had no rioting near me so I've got no experience of how the cases are being dealt with first hand this time round. I'm not saying it isn't happening although all, bit I suspect a lot of it will be those with a vested interest misrepresenting or misinterpreting the process that is occurring...

 

[BarryZola]

It’s not just as simple to say build more prisons. No one wants a prison built around the corner from them, just like no one wants a new railway or road built through their back garden.

Then you have the time to build them, and then you need to train and hire additional staff.

If it takes ten years to build a new prison and train staff, What do you do to solve the problem today?

It’s the same with all public services, we need to start planning for ten years in the future so the services can handle future requirements.

And to do this, we need to raise taxes as it requires more money.

So as a government you have to do lots of unpopular decisions to solve the problem, which makes people not want to vote for you and vote for the party which makes lots of promises but can’t only deliver a fraction of them.

My argument is that it needs to be a higher priority. Of course you can't build a prison in a few weeks but any government should be prioritizing the safety of its citizens and if that means removing people from the streets for an amount of time then so be it. And to do that you need prison space. The point is that this government and the last one don't appear to show signs that they are taking it seriously. Personally I would be announcing that new prisons are in the process of being put in place and that it will be done as soon as possible. I would probably just have a new prison just for knife offenders and let it be known that anyone found carrying a knife (unless for work) will receive 5 years in prison and get that knocked on the head straight away. Too many crazies out there at the moment just doing what they want. Divert the funds from areas that are less of a priority, like HS2 for one. Use the land to build much needed houses and also to build prisons. Sell the rest of it to gain funds. There are ways to get things done but no-one in government has the inclination or the balls.

 

[GaryH]

I have to ask but why does it take 10 years to build a prison? Why do building projects in this country take so long compared to other countries. I can’t recall which country it was but a few years back when a storm washed away a major road they rebuilt it within a week - was it Japan?

 

[BarryZola]

I have to ask but why does it take 10 years to build a prison? Why do building projects in this country take so long compared to other countries. I can’t recall which country it was but a few years back when a storm washed away a major road they rebuilt it within a week - was it Japan?

Because we're a pathetic country that thinks it's a good idea to try to send everyone to Uni to get a degree instead of encouraging people into trades via apprenticeships etc. Basically everything's broken and whoever gets into government is too scared to upset the applecart. It's just managed decline at this point and those in power are just happy to pick up their pay-checks and the more lucrative 'side-hustles'. Keep the gravy train rolling along and sod the plebs.

 

[rob666]

What was reprted on the earlier discussion was the cases of people being remanded for an offence then being dealt with at court the next day, as all remand cases are. Some of these were giluilty plea and sentenced that day, some were not guilty and remanded or bailed for a court date in the future, as all remand cases are. No different to any other route through the criminal justice system.

I've not seen the reported outrage you refer to, got any links? I'm genuinely curious about it. We've had no rioting near me so I've got no experience of how the cases are being dealt with first hand this time round. I'm not saying it isn't happening although all, bit I suspect a lot of it will be those with a vested interest misrepresenting or misinterpreting the process that is occurring...

Radio 4 in the night on the world service, and it has been reported in the (too) extensive coverage in the good old Guardian online and in I newspaper in print.
I thought of you in the middle of the night...sweetie.

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

It took 4 years, from announcement to completion, for HMP Five Wells to be built. It currently has a a capacity of 1,687. Building was completed in late 2020, to a cost of £253 million. The institution started accepting its first cohort in 2022. It's a private prison, managed by G4S and already, after inspections, is rated as one of the worst performing in the country.

If we are going to build and manage new prisons, the first step we need to take is bringing them back under state control. HMPPS have already had to take HMP Birmingham back under state control, after the mess G4S left that institution in.

The immediate short/medium term fix isn't to build more prisons, but instead ensure that we have an integrated probation service capable of safely managing and rehabilitating people with criminal convictions. Effective community management will free up space within the custodial estate, and massively cut re-offending rates. I've explored how re-offending / licence breaches can become a perpetual cycle of doom, that's difficult to break, in earlier posts.

Each person in custody needs a bespoke offender management plan, outlining the behaviour courses they need to undertake, in addition to vocational and life skills educational training. They need to have a housing and support plan, for when they're released. They need to be given opportunities to repay society, rebuild and start again. Probationary practictioners and police offender managers need to work closely together, and with their client, to support them and offer a crime free life.

The Probation service is criminally underfunded, with many regions now effecting a "light touch / no contact," policy for most offenders (apart from those subject to MAPPA) in the last 1/3rd of their sentence. Given that the vast majority of people are released early, at the half way point, this doesn't give a lot of support time in the community to build back better. Probation are understaffed and underfunded. If we can spare £253 million for another prison, I'd argue that those funds are better directed at reinforcing our stripped back probation service.

Let's not even begin to start in Failing Grayling's attempt at privatising the probation service, and the further mess that created for the justice system.

 

[BarryZola]

Let's have both. New state run prisons and a properly functioning probation service. Good idea

 

[rob666]

And what about my ankles?

 

[jon81uk]

That is supposing that they are not a significant cost to society in benefits and the aftermath of crime and in countless other ways when on the outside. It's not zero versus £1000.

Which is why proper probation and support is needed or community service to help prevent reoffending.

Divert the funds from areas that are less of a priority, like HS2 for one. Use the land to build much needed houses and also to build prisons.

But new train lines are also needed, our existing ones are full and we need to get cars off the road. Build the railway and ban internal flights in the UK, maybe then spare airport land can be used.
The problem with HS2 is the nimbys wanted it in tunnels which is costing a fortune. If they’d just build standard railway it would probably have been completed already.

 

[BarryZola]

Which is why proper probation and support is needed or community service to help prevent reoffending.


But new train lines are also needed, our existing ones are full and we need to get cars off the road. Build the railway and ban internal flights in the UK, maybe then spare airport land can be used.
The problem with HS2 is the nimbys wanted it in tunnels which is costing a fortune. If they’d just build standard railway it would probably have been completed already.

Public safety is more important than space on trains or roads. It's the number one priority (or should clearly be). Let's be honest. HS2 is and has always been a waste of money. Even more so after we had to plunge countless billions into Covid and the repercussions of a war in Ukraine. There's no way that anyone would decide to build it if the idea was floated today. The only reason they're letting it continue is because they're already part-way through and they've dished out the contracts already for the work. It would easily have gone down as the biggest waste of money in the 21st century in Britain if it wasn't for intense competition from the Covid contracts crew who have given away billions to their mates. A close call.

We have Zoom and Microsoft Teams these days if you really need to speak to someone face to face quickly or have meetings. It's taken them so long to build this white elephant that technology has made the whole thing redundant. An absolute epic fail of the highest proportions but no-one in government has had the bottle to do the right thing and pull the plug on the whole thing and try to make something useful out of the mess that's left.

 

[jon81uk]

Public safety is more important than space on trains or roads. It's the number one priority (or should clearly be). Let's be honest. HS2 is and has always been a waste of money. Even more so after we had to plunge countless billions into Covid and the repercussions of a war in Ukraine. There's no way that anyone would decide to build it if the idea was floated today. The only reason they're letting it continue is because they're already part-way through and they've dished out the contracts already for the work. It would easily have gone down as the biggest waste of money in the 21st century in Britain if it wasn't for intense competition from the Covid contracts crew who have given away billions to their mates. A close call.

We have Zoom and Microsoft Teams these days if you really need to speak to someone face to face quickly or have meetings. It's taken them so long to build this white elephant that technology has made the whole thing redundant. An absolute epic fail of the highest proportions but no-one in government has had the bottle to do the right thing and pull the plug on the whole thing and try to make something useful out of the mess that's left.

The best way to make something useful out of it is to finish the project. I absolutely think if it was proposed now it would go ahead, just hopefully without all the stupid tunnelling. Look at the efficient train services across Europe. We need similar investment into infrastructure.