UK Politics General Discussion

[BarryZola]

Yeah, we do, but in my opinion it's not as important as people being able to afford a roof over their head or to not be stabbed whilst going about their business in our towns and cities. I would say sort out the fundamentals of life first like a roof over your head and safety. People have different priorities though, that's fine.

 

[pluk]

Radio 4 in the night on the world service, and it has been reported in the (too) extensive coverage in the good old Guardian online and in I newspaper in print.
I thought of you in the middle of the night...sweetie.

A search of the Grauniad website gives me nothing?

UK criminal justice | The Guardian

Latest news, sport, business, comment, analysis and reviews from the Guardian, the world's leading liberal voice

www.theguardian.com

The only thing I've found seems to be a variation of this article https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ctims-riots-rape-sexual-assualt-b2596150.html which without quoting it to death is agenda based and something of a misrepresentation of what is happening. The wording of it suggest to me they know what they are doing too. The article doesn't state these offences are jumping the queue or that any other trial has been bumped, things they absolutely would mention to prove their point if they had happened.

Again, I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but I've still not seen anything that says it has and am genuinely interested to read about it.

Why can't sexual assaults experience the same 'swift justice' that rioters are seeing? Because they aren't even remotely similar investigations.
Clear CCTV of you strolling out of Greg's with your tray of steak bakes or wheeling your bin on fire at a police van? Investigation complete, of to court you go.
Allegation of sexual assault, you might need forensic analysis, mobile phone downloads, multiple statements, medical records. All sorts that can take ages, months, and there is really not a lot that can be done about that. If the evidence is there offenders can be in court the next day, and in VAWG cases and domestic cases this does happen, often, but equally often it can't.

They know this, but it doesn't make a good story.

 

[rob666]

Lots of cases just for sentencing have been delayed in the last two weeks...specifically because of the riot cases being prioritised...solicitors grumbles again on the BBC.
The courts wouldn't give a specific reason for the additional delay, but the riot cases were heard in the same courts where the sentencing of the other cases would have taken place.
Think was BBC Manchester on the local tv news.
LBC have also been on about it.
The papers are also saying the prison service is days away from "final procedures" for overcrowding, as it may not last until the Sept 10th releases...one in, one out wherever there is space around the country.

 

[pluk]

Lots of cases just for sentencing have been delayed in the last two weeks...specifically because of the riot cases being prioritised...solicitors grumbles again on the BBC.
The courts wouldn't give a specific reason for the additional delay, but the riot cases were heard in the same courts where the sentencing of the other cases would have taken place.
Think was BBC Manchester on the local tv news.
LBC have also been on about it.
The papers are also saying the prison service is days away from "final procedures" for overcrowding, as it may not last until the Sept 10th releases...one in, one out wherever there is space around the country.

C'mon, throw me a crumb of a link. I'm just not seeing what you are seeing.

Yes, of course the busier the courts are the longer things will take to come to trial, including the not guilty riot cases that defendants are being bailed and remanded for, but you can't not schedule these cases.

The whole criminal justice system is creaking from years of under investment and the clinging on to of archaic processes, but that can't mean criminals aren't put on trial. Form an orderly queue. Its the British way

 

[rob666]

I'm sorry I haven't been taking careful note of sources for you mate...but it has been out there at length.
...and have you ever seen me provide a link, or even a member tag, ever, in 11,000 posts.
I'm in the north, listening to the BBC locally and nationally.
Read it in the I paper.
LBC link is out there on podcast.
Sentencing has been a real issue in this area, not trial...it has been repeatedly cancelled locally without reason or notice, yet sentencing has taken place swiftly in the case of rioters.

 

[Alsty]

Doesn't it make sense to charge and convict rioters promptly as a deterrent to others?

 

[rob666]

Yes, but when victims who may have waited years for justice, to be told, oh hang on, another few weeks, they are having repeated injustice served again.
I'm all for speedy justice in the situation, but it is not fair to say others aren't waiting longer for justice, when they are.
Barristers on both sides of justice, and local solicitors in the north west, have raised the issue publicly regarding sentencing.

 

[Jb85]

Genuine question here as I’m stumped. But how do we sort this stabbing culture out?

Yet more stabbing tonight

https://news.sky.com/story/notting-hill-carnival-police-make-38-arrests-as-one-man-stabbed-13203477

It’s almost become normalised. Every j if event seems to have some sort of violence mostly around knife crime.

I really fear for the future of this country.

I cannot see how more police alone will make a difference here. It’s become acceptable to a large proportion of society to carry a weapon.

It’s becoming cultural - and I think made worse by the lack of mental health support across the country.

Could maybe do with its own thread.

 

[pluk]

I cannot see how more police alone will make a difference here. It’s become acceptable to a large proportion of society to carry a weapon.

It's a tiny proportion of society, they are mostly drug dealers, and they mostly stab each other so if you are not choosing to operate in their world then you are exceedingly unlikely to be involved or a victim of them. Not that that makes it OK.

It comes from kids walking around thinking they can do what they like, because they can do what they like. Every effort of the criminal justice system is to stop juveniles being in court and being punished, but instead being given chance after chance after chance. They know they are practically untouchable until they are exactly 18. It's a nonsense.

 

[rob666]

Knives seem to go into and out of fashion over the decades.
They were a big thing in the late sixties and early seventies, in my youth all teenagers had a knife, often a flick knife or butterfly type.
Usually purchased on holiday in France, together with a large mixed selection of petards purchased by an older sibling.

Then by the eighties, everyone having one, and rarely using it for anything other than a bit of whittling, became a thug and gang weapon war, and amnesties started and knives became the standard robbery tool.

Knife crime appears to have gone up, as stop and search has gone down.
Usually six months for a first offence of carrying, up to four years for repeaters.
Yet they still carry knives on a routine basis.

 

[BarryZola]

I'm not too sure anymore that if you're not involved in drug dealing that you're exceedingly unlikely to become a victim. Just off the top of my head you had the young asian lad who was a victim of mistaken identity and killed by a couple of little scrotes a couple of years back, the young lad who was killed in a Wolverhampton park by another couple of scrotes about a year ago or so. He was just hanging with his mates in the park and these lads set about bullying his group and ended up stabbing him to death. Just the other night in Birmingham a white bloke in early 30s pushing a pushchair down the road with his family and also walking his dog was stabbed in the neck (whilst being filmed) and left to bleed on the streets whilst his attackers just callously laughed on film (now arrested for attempted murder). Unfortunately I clicked a link and saw the whole incident. It's definitely become a culture with some people now that stabbing is a cool thing to do and somehow proves how much of a 'badman' you are.

The wider implications too, we're basically hostages to petty criminals now. Hardly anyone intervenes in crime anymore even in broad daylight as there's a good chance these hoodlums are carrying a knife. How many times do you hear that bystanders didn't do anything because they were even threatened with a knife or just couldn't be sure if they were carrying anything.

We've had these 'panics' before but I fear this new trend from the last decade or so is totally different and the lack of action to get a handle on it will be to the detriment of the country maybe forever. Drill music doesn't help either and I know people will say that adults have always moaned about how dangerous youth music is but, again, I think this time it's different.

Basically just try to live out in the countryside somewhere where you don't get a dense population of these lowlife scumbags is my only real advice. The government seemingly aren't too bothered about stopping it.

 

[Benzin]

I'd imagine years of austerity, often being part of groups that either feel or are unfairly targeted for various reasons (I.e. poor people should just do X and they won't be poor anymore), loss of a number of young people centres and I'm sure a number of other things have lead to it.

That being said, knife related crime never went away. Just feels like the media flavour of the month due to Southport, so it'll get reported on a lot and then the next big panic will turn up, without any serious action being done to actually solve the issues pertaining to why it happens.

 

[rob666]

It has increased a lot in the last decade, clearly so.
Only know because I looked up the stats an hour ago!
It really came through in fashion fads when I worked with kids in care, twice.
Local police focus, talks in all the schools, and knife amnesties.

You can imagine the discussions in a children's home, with a very mixed group of residents...all classes, all ages, all abilities...and Rob in charge of the knife drawer...

"Well you lot, the coppers have been round...what the flip are we going to do with the big sharp cluckers in the big drawer then?
A dozen sharp long ones, a couple of long serrated ones, half a dozen short steak ones, and the bloody great cleaver we use on halloween.
We've never locked them away in twenty years, who wants to fill out the shiny new risk assessment form then?
I'll help with the clucking spelling if you fill it out between you..."

Twice round, about a decade apart.

And just so you know, we never did lock the main kitchen knives away.

Some were removed as not required.

Stabby stabby has its fashion with youth, a bit like fidget spinners, but with blades.

I remember cattle prods and tazers.

 

[GaryH]

Just waiting to see some of those arrested yesterday quickly put through the courts and thrown into jail with lengthy sentences within the next week….

 

[rob666]

But no actual riots there, or attempts to burn innocent people out of their accommodation.
Try comparing apples to apples, not chalk to cheese.
Two million people attending, so proportionately very little criminal behaviour...compared to the racist thugs of earlier.

 

[Dave]

Just waiting to see some of those arrested yesterday quickly put through the courts and thrown into jail with lengthy sentences within the next week….

I find it truly astounding that people don’t understand the difference between pleading guilty and pleading innocent and the ease with which you can evidence crime when you do it infront of the police and on camera compared to not in front of the police and on camera.

I also find it curious that people don’t get why when effectively the crime is still ongoing (civil unrest) that you wouldn’t publicise the guilty plea and sentences widely to get others to stop…

But then you referenced 1984 a few pages back yet spout the rhetoric of the very people 1984 was warning against .

 

[GaryH]

But no actual riots there, or attempts to burn innocent people out of their accommodation.
Try comparing apples to apples, not chalk to cheese.
Two million people attending, so proportionately very little criminal behaviour...compared to the racist thugs of earlier.

10 emergency workers attacked. 3 people stabbed. 18 people with an offensive weapon. Personally I'd say that’s worse than pushing a wheelie bin at a police officer or saying something on Facebook but perhaps that’s just my interpretation on the seriousness of a crime these days!

Not condoning the riots in any way, but if the law and courts can work this quickly for the rioters then I would expect to see it work in equal measure for the above offences.

 

[GaryH]

But then you referenced 1984 a few pages back yet spout the rhetoric of the very people 1984 was warning against .

Spout what rhetoric exactly Dave? Saying that all groups of people in society should all be treated the same in terms of the law? No rule for one and not for another? That’s what I’m saying Dave.

Or does saying such things go against the rules set by the government and we should not critique our dear leader?

 

[rob666]

10 emergency workers attacked. 3 people stabbed. 18 people with an offensive weapon. Personally I'd say that’s worse than pushing a wheelie bin at a police officer or saying something on Facebook but perhaps that’s just my interpretation on the seriousness of a crime these days!

Not condoning the riots in any way, but if the law and courts can work this quickly for the rioters then I would expect to see it work in equal measure for the above offences.

Two million people attending Notting Hill over the weekend, it has been estimated that 99.9% of the attendees were legal and lawful.

Compare that to the rioting scum crowds.

 

[Squiggs]

Just waiting to see some of those arrested yesterday quickly put through the courts and thrown into jail with lengthy sentences within the next week….

Well, they've made a good start, haven't they? Given that it seems that the majority of the perpetrators of the most serious crimes yesterday were arrested at point of crime or within hours?

I suspect that's already miles better than the arrest rate during the riots. According to the stats you shared, there were 15 assaults on emergency works, and there's already been 10 related arrests, which means they've arrested somewhere between 67% and 100% of the perpetrators (hard to know the exact figure, because one arrest might be related to multiple assaults).

I'd be seriously surprised if they've arrest two thirds of the rioters, even now a couple of weeks on.