ULEZ

[Archie]

Happy ULEZ day. Remember that Chessington is part of the expanded zone from today. So check your vehicle to see if you have to pay:

Check your Vehicle

tfl.gov.uk

Or you know, just don’t go to Chessington since it’s a bit pants anyway.

I wonder if it will affect attendance

 

[Dave]

I wonder if it will affect attendance

Seen as 90% of existing cars are ULEZ compliant I doubt it.

 

[Craig]

Seen as 90% of existing cars are ULEZ compliant I doubt it.

I'd disagree on that front, I'm sure it's something they're probably a little worried about. That 90% may be factually correct, but you've got a few factors that would likely be cause for concern:

• The target market for Chessington are much more likely to have larger cars - SUVs or similar, and they're much more likely to be diesel. Whereas a lot of newer vehicles are fine, there's that much shorter time period of around post 2015 for them to be compliant vs 10 years earlier with petrol.
• Even taking away the above, there's the psychological factor. Some will simply assume they can't go without forking out for it because they have an old car or a diesel car and they've not/can't be bothered to look into it. That's sadly as a result of the aforementioned fear-mongering that's been happily drummed up by public figures and the media to try and get a dying party back in the good books.

 

[Dave]

I'd disagree on that front, I'm sure it's something they're probably a little worried about. That 90% may be factually correct, but you've got a few factors that would likely be cause for concern:

• The target market for Chessington are much more likely to have larger cars - SUVs or similar, and they're much more likely to be diesel. Whereas a lot of newer vehicles are fine, there's that much shorter time period of around post 2015 for them to be compliant vs 10 years earlier with petrol.
• Even taking away the above, there's the psychological factor. Some will simply assume they can't go without forking out for it because they have an old car or a diesel car and they've not/can't be bothered to look into it. That's sadly as a result of the aforementioned fear-mongering that's been happily drummed up by public figures and the media to try and get a dying party back in the good books.

We will see, it’s not impossible but I don’t think people are stupid enough not to check when push comes to shove, plus if you don’t live in London but visiting Chessington you are more likely to see it as something you cost absorb for a leisure trip.

Let’s face it unless you are a MAP holder you are only going at most once a year which is not a big deal, and it’s the terrible queues that will put you off a return visit more than ULEZ.

 

[Thameslink Rail]

Did they have any issues with coach parties when they joined LEZ in 2008 and when the LEZ regulations were tightened in 2012 and 2021?

 

[Craig]

Did they have any issues with coach parties when they joined LEZ in 2008 and when the LEZ regulations were tightened in 2012 and 2021?

It's too difficult to tell really, as guest figures are rarely reported by Merlin save for cropping up in planning applications, and certainly not in that sort of granularity.

We'll likely never know what effect the expanded ULEZ has officially either. But, it's just important to note that it's not as simple as saying most vehicles aren't affected when the answer is potentially a lot more complex than that. Sure, £12.50 doesn't sound like much on the face of it, however it does appear that there's lower attendances across the industry this year. So I don't think it's as easy as saying guests affected will simply factor it in and absorb it, especially when there appears to be existing cost concerns which are already preventing people visiting.

 

[MaxPower]

As much as I agree with the basic principle of cleaning up the air around London and encouraging the public to use public transport or walk, I bought my current diesel over 10 years ago when the government were hailing them as the automotive saviour of the world much like electric is today. I've already lost so much value in it due to the demonisation of diesels that I might as well wait for it to fall apart at this point. It's also only £30 a year tax unlike newer petrols.

Public transport is also shambolic anywhere outside of London. The last time I used Avanti, the train was double booked due to an earlier cancellation and I had to spend 3 hours standing and half the bogs were out of order, so I'll just pay the £12.50 next time and travel down the comfort of my own vehicle.

 

[Dave]

As much as I agree with the basic principle of cleaning up the air around London and encouraging the public to use public transport or walk, I bought my current diesel over 10 years ago when the government were hailing them as the automotive saviour of the world much like electric is today. I've already lost so much value in it due to the demonisation of diesels that I might as well wait for it to fall apart at this point. It's also only £30 a year tax unlike newer petrols.

Public transport is also shambolic anywhere outside of London. The last time I used Avanti, the train was double booked due to an earlier cancellation and I had to spend 3 hours standing and half the bogs were out of order, so I'll just pay the £12.50 next time and travel down the comfort of my own vehicle.

The non-London state of public transport is why I don’t support expansion into other cities yet. I also agree with Saqiq Khan and Andy Burnham that the government pushed for these schemes so they should have sorted a better scrapage scheme for those effected (I don’t doubt Khan supports ULEZ but the government insisted on nearly all the latest expansion, so they should not be able to wash their hands of this).

Until there is better more affordable public transport and a good scheme for replacing these cars other cities expansion should be put on hold.

 

[jon81uk]

The non-London state of public transport is why I don’t support expansion into other cities yet. I also agree with Saqiq Khan and Andy Burnham that the government pushed for these schemes so they should have sorted a better scrapage scheme for those effected (I don’t doubt Khan supports ULEZ but the government insisted on nearly all the latest expansion, so they should not be able to wash their hands of this).

Until there is better more affordable public transport and a good scheme for replacing these cars other costumes expansion should be put on hold.

Unfortunately the current government don't seem to care about running public transport, look at HS2. Adding more capacity to the rail network is vital to try and improve both intercity and local train services but they keep wasting money by stopping construction.

 

[Dave]

Unfortunately the current government don't seem to care about running public transport, look at HS2. Adding more capacity to the rail network is vital to try and improve both intercity and local train services but they keep wasting money by stopping construction.

I’m not convinced on HS2, the required capacity in most cases could be achieved by upgrading the existing lines. Plus HS2 services areas of the country that have good connections for the most part, completely ignoring the north east as usual.

 

[jon81uk]

I’m not convinced on HS2, the required capacity in most cases could be achieved by upgrading the existing lines. Plus HS2 services areas of the country that have good connections for the most part, completely ignoring the north east as usual.

HS2 is upgrading the existing lines. It is adding more tracks following the route of the west coast mainline, so that line can then run more slower stopping services. If they were to attempt to do it by working on the existing lines costs would be similar but would need 8 to 29 years of weekend closures and disruption. Its cheaper/easier and more sensible to build new tracks to upgrade.

It should be going to at least Leeds and I agree it should go further north still but the stupid government keeps delaying and cancelling construction.

 

[Dave]

HS2 is upgrading the existing lines. It is adding more tracks following the route of the west coast mainline, so that line can then run more slower stopping services. If they were to attempt to do it by working on the existing lines costs would be similar but would need 8 to 29 years of weekend closures and disruption. Its cheaper/easier and more sensible to build new tracks to upgrade.

It should be going to at least Leeds and I agree it should go further north still but the stupid government keeps delaying and cancelling construction.

But the route to Leeds would have completely missed the entire eastern flank of England which again is disproportionally under serviced by public transport.

The city of Leeds had a decent service to London (it’s just expensive), and HS2 would have shaved 15 minutes off the current journey. What we need are more train services going to places that don’t have them rather than trimming a few minutes off journeys to London.

Anyway we have swung away from ULEZ a bit here.

 

[jon81uk]

But the route to Leeds would have completely missed the entire eastern flank of England which again is disproportionally under serviced by public transport.

The city of Leeds had a decent service to London (it’s just expensive), and HS2 would have shaved 15 minutes off the current journey. What we need are more train services going to places that don’t have them rather than trimming a few minutes off journeys to London.

Anyway we have swung away from ULEZ a bit here.

Don’t focus on the shaving 15 minutes off, that isn’t relevant, HS2 is not about trimming a few minutes off. Adding additional tracks means more services can then run to places that don’t have enough stopping services on the current tracks. Basically move the intercity services to the new high speed lines and you’ll get more capacity for the local services.

 

[Sam]

I support the destruction of the cameras. The people don't want them.

That's simply not true.

 

[GaryH]

These schemes being brought in with no consultation and very little scientific backing behind them under the guise of saving the planet are very worrying for the future of democracy in this country.

While Boris introduced the congestion charge in London which I think is fair enough given you don’t actually need a car to get around central London, we are now seeing LTNs, expanded ULEZ zones and I was reading yesterday Bath is now going to introduce parking charges based on the type of car you are parking.

A diesel vehicle will end up paying twice as much as a petrol car to park in Bath in the future.

We have LTNs popping up all over the country since covid with no prior consultations, the expanded ULEZ around London with no scientific backing and wales pressing ahead with its 20mph blanket limit.

Only thing consistent with all these anti cat measures are they seem to be mostly in Labour run councils. Regardless though, it’s worrying all these changes are being brought in similar to how China or north Korea would introduce new rules as they see fit regardless what the majority think or want.

Many believe we are heading blindly into 15 minute cities. These are cities where travel between different zones by private vehicles within the city is prohibited and people doing so are fined. Think it’s sci fi? Oxford council are on the verge of trialling splitting the city into zones and issues passes to residents to allow them to cross zones a maximum of 100 times a year. If you exceed this then you get a £79 fine each year.

You basically become prisoner within each zone similar to that seen in futurist films. The elderly and those unable to use cycles or walk or public transport are going to be most impacted by this, and while climate change may be a concern for the next generation, I think this is an ever greater one as peoples freedoms and rights are taken away under the guise of being green.

 

[Poisson]

That's simply not true.

59% don't support it's expansion.

Source: Your Link.

 

[MattyH]

@Sam according to your link 57% of people apparently think we should pedestrianise all of central London. That would be insane.

 

[Tom]

These schemes being brought in with no consultation and very little scientific backing behind them under the guise of saving the planet are very worrying for the future of democracy in this country.

While Boris introduced the congestion charge in London which I think is fair enough given you don’t actually need a car to get around central London, we are now seeing LTNs, expanded ULEZ zones and I was reading yesterday Bath is now going to introduce parking charges based on the type of car you are parking.

A diesel vehicle will end up paying twice as much as a petrol car to park in Bath in the future.

We have LTNs popping up all over the country since covid with no prior consultations, the expanded ULEZ around London with no scientific backing and wales pressing ahead with its 20mph blanket limit.

Only thing consistent with all these anti cat measures are they seem to be mostly in Labour run councils. Regardless though, it’s worrying all these changes are being brought in similar to how China or north Korea would introduce new rules as they see fit regardless what the majority think or want.

Many believe we are heading blindly into 15 minute cities. These are cities where travel between different zones by private vehicles within the city is prohibited and people doing so are fined. Think it’s sci fi? Oxford council are on the verge of trialling splitting the city into zones and issues passes to residents to allow them to cross zones a maximum of 100 times a year. If you exceed this then you get a £79 fine each year.

You basically become prisoner within each zone similar to that seen in futurist films. The elderly and those unable to use cycles or walk or public transport are going to be most impacted by this, and while climate change may be a concern for the next generation, I think this is an ever greater one as peoples freedoms and rights are taken away under the guise of being green.

An interesting, if somewhat paranoid view.

The main thrust of the 15-minute city concept is to avoid unnecessary travel and vehicle use based on amenities being closer together. Many deluded people think they are based on suppression of freedoms.

People and consumption need to be controlled in many areas of life, and have been done for centuries.

 

[GaryH]

An interesting, if somewhat paranoid view.

The main thrust of the 15-minute city concept is to avoid unnecessary travel and vehicle use based on amenities being closer together. Many deluded people think they are based on suppression of freedoms.

People and consumption need to be controlled in many areas of life, and have been done for centuries.

I don’t think it’s deluded. To put people into zones and fine then for crossing zones sounds very much like suppression of freedoms to me.

The scary thing is how many people in the UK seem quite happy sleepwalking into this. Mainly the younger generation.

 

[John]

...probably because they don't believe the fear mongering?

I find the backlash against walkable cities utterly bizarre. I am very happy to live in a place where I don't really need to drive anywhere on a day-to-day basis. A big factor in choosing where I live now was the excellent rail connections (to avoid having to drive to the office) and having a range of shops and amenities all within walking distance. I wouldn't want to live somewhere I'd have to get into my car every time I step out the front door.