Virgin Trains lose West Coast Franchise

[TheMan]

My point is that it is not exactly on an upward curve is it?

We have to base decisions on privatisation/nationalisation based upon those whom are involved NOW.

Right now there are WAY too many vested interests going round, (just research a tiny fraction of recent NHS privatisation awards to discover the truth, follow the money as Journos say) to say, yes - nationalisation would be good right now!

There is one thing driving this present economy - and it is NOT the best interests of the public or consumer that is for certain. Nationalised railways, would simply be re-privatised to mates of those in power, with the money not going on anything that would increase the service that is for sure! Historical, and present day research of any note will show you this.

I have family who work in the NHS, as many of us do I am sure, and one is for certain - they ARE NOT focused on improving it, why would railways be any different?

The Country is not run by those of the common man Sam. That is just a fact I'm afraid.

Also, you might want to view these figures - "WHO World Healthcare Rankings"

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom

And those were from a while BEFORE the affects of the swingeing cuts are going to be felt. There is only one direction we're heading in that list with such a backwards attitude towards public services that we now have in our midst.

 

[Sam]

Also, you might want to view these figures - "WHO World Healthcare Rankings"

Those figures are from 2000 - before the huge increase in NHS spending undertaken by the last government would have come into effect.

Also, how on earth do those figures prove your point?! We came 18th best out of 190, ahead of Sweden, Canada and the United States. To me, that proves that our healthcare system is pretty damn amazing.

One thing's for certain: our privatised railway system is certainly not the 18th best in the world.

 

[TheMan]

Yes that was my point though Sam, you judge it by the present indicators as to how nationalisation would be viewed.

With the 6th biggest economy, and a healthcare system that is taxation based, and therefore supposedly "for and of" the people - there is no way we should be that LOW down the list. In my opinion, our NHS should be in the top 5 for quality of care. There is zero excuse for it not to be.

I come from a family, with many nurses and professionals extending out into friendships. There are MANY things that could be happening, to improve quality of life, and care, and CHEAPER - that is not being done due to POOR MANAGEMENT. A friend of mine services machines across the entire NHS, I've also worked my self with some high profile TV Doctors, they all share the same frustrations about bureaucracy/politics and how it affects care. It is getting WORSE now, not better.

You can't then expect, on a far smaller budget, these same people to take on a network being run well as a business, and make positive changes to it? They don't have the vision, knowledge or skills.

If they did, guess what, they'd be running their own multi billion pound businesses.

Great debate though Sam! ;D - I hope you take it in the spirit it is meant, I certainly am!

 

[TheMan]

I don't have time to fully wade into this now but it's worth pointing out that under this current ludicrous system:

The subsidy for the current franchise system is in real terms (i.e. adjusted for inflation) four times that of the subsidy for British Rail. Source

So the system that was badly introduced by the Conservative government of 1994 in fact costs us four times as much as the nationalised service did. Clearly there are a number of factors that muddy the water, but entirely in economic terms the current franchise system has been a disaster for the tax payer. The default of National Express on the East Coast Main Line, or First's deciding to avoid paying £826million on the Great Western Main Line, only to be shortlisted to run the franchise again (source), is testament to that.

I can't for the life of me understand why the UK government doesn't have a stake in any of the private companies bidding or operating franchises. For example, First TransPennine Express is 45% owned by Keolis, a company majority owned by the French state-owned national rail company SNCF. Transport giant Arriva (who incidentally own CrossCountry) is completely owned by the German state-owned rail company Deutsche Bahn. I accept that our government appears to be completely inept at running anything, but a 49% or less stake in a private company could only be beneficial.

Another colossal flaw is that neither the government nor the train operating companies that operate the franchises own the rolling stock - the trains are all owned by Rolling Stock Operating Companies, of which there are three major ones in the UK, owned by major banks. One used to be named HSBC Rail but presumably saw the PR issues associated with the bank. These companies make huge sums of money. Click here to learn how the government sold HSBC Rail for a sum £200million under its market value. Good one.

So, to recap, there are a few minor flaws with the current system:

• The government subsidy to the rail industry is four times what it was when it was nationalised.
• There don't appear to be any safeguards to stop the franchise operators jumping ship with their money when things aren't going well.
• The government somehow managed to avoid getting a stake in any of the franchise operators, despite being able to at no cost (following initial privatisation) and despite other state-owned operators successfully and profitably operating our railways.
• The track, the trains and the franchises are all separately owned and operated by different companies, and the government sold them for far less than they were worth.
• The franchise system does little to encourage long-term investment, given that by the time any investments begin to make return the franchise expires.
• The rail system completely rapes passengers, offering them terrible service at the most expensive prices in Europe.

Really, I don't think the debate should be whether First have worse staff or Virgin have cool trains (they didn't even own them or decide to introduce the joke Pendolinos) - the question should be why the franchise system is still in place and all three major parties still support it. Again, focussing on economic terms, which is what this all comes down to, the only reason to support Branson is that I share his worry that First's wildly high bid is unsustainable and they simply won't be able to afford their payments to the government, thus defaulting à la National Express.

I know this post was a while back, I've only just found it, and wanted to air it again for its sheer BRILLIANCE!

That sums up, most of my posts on most of the boards today really! Lining pockets, dodgy dealings, incompetent government, hidden agendas, zero scrutiny, lack of accountability, disgraceful service, the banking fraternity - the list goes on, and summarised, in one, ubiquitous, phenomenal post, about rail travel.

Well done, that man!

EDIT: And just as I write that, I get an email about British Gas price rises of 6% - knowing full well, that will ensure their profits remain at 6% or more, and another chunk of it is to replace the aging National Grid. Once again, we have people being leached for their ESSENTIALS such as not dying from cold(!) by unscrupulous businessmen.

Ed Miliband had a great idea on this, mass buying of energy by central government, for cost savings passed directly onto consumers (not the larger cats). A brilliant idea!

The irony of course with that, is that a very select few spend their days VERY warm, off the coasts of VERY hot countries, on VERY large boats - whilst others freeze, and cannot afford to eat. Slightly off topic, but again, really only serves as another example of how we need a PROPER Government, to serve US (NOT themselves and friends as presently obvious), THEN you can repatriate the railways effectively, as presently a big chunk of public money, for what SHOULD be public services (infra structured elements such as RAIL, HEALTH, ENERGY) goes to offshore or foreign companies - often, as pointed out by Rupert there, significantly part owned by other COUNTRIES Governments!

How is that, even remotely right?

I'm not a religious man per se, but I do hope there is also a warm spot in hell awaiting these folks I tell you, keep them in the manner they've become accustomed to!

 

[Scott]

Virgin Trains lose West Coast Franchise

Bit of a bump but...

Virgin have been reawarded the franchise for 2 years.


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