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What are your thoughts on the introduction of 20mph speed limits in built-up areas?

GaryH said:
It’s how you define speeding.
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The same as the law does. Driving above the posted limit. Your thoughts on that posted limit are in all honesty entirely irrelevant.

If you don't agree with the posted limit you are probably just mot properly informed, and if it is a genuinely inappropriate limit your issue should be with the council/highways who set the limits, not the police who enforce them. In the mean time, you drive at the limit. It really is very simple.
 
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The current low opinion of the police doesn't have a lot to do with speeding, but that's a whole different point to what's being discussed here.

It being a blanket thing is... weird. But I doubt it is part of some government conspiracy to not have to fix pot holes.

I'd rather have a ULEZ zone than the complete anti-car nonsense going on in Leeds right now. There are a lot of ways to reduce car usage but a lot of the options tend to get put down by the public due to costs (see HS2, though part of that is due to the awful mismanagement, like most government schemes) and that the construction would cause delays for a period of time.

Instead of adding in bus gates and such, maybe a serviceable public transport system instead? Won't catch on.
 
pluk said:
The same as the law does. Driving above the posted limit. Your thoughts on that posted limit are in all honesty entirely irrelevant.

If you don't agree with the posted limit you are probably just mot properly informed, and if it is a genuinely inappropriate limit your issue should be with the council/highways who set the limits, not the police who enforce them. In the mean time, you drive at the limit. It really is very simple.
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I don’t blame the police for the limits. Never have. The point I was trying to make above about public perception has been discussed so let’s not drag it out. We both know complaining to the council about limits is a waste of time.

Just as much of a waste as the majority of people in Wales vocally being against the new speed limits and those residents opposed to LTNs. It’s like a dictatorship where they are imposed on people despite the overwhelming disagreement to them and without any form of a consultation or vote.
 
rob666 said:
Hit a kid at 20, they will probably live.
Hit a child at 30, they will probably die.
That was what I got on my speed awareness course recently.
All for it.
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Hold on!
I remember those ads. It was hit me at 40 and there's an 80% chance I'll die. Hit me at 30 and there's an 80% chance I'll live.
So are they lying to us now, did they lie to us in the past, or have all children developed bridal bones in the last 20 years?

I'm not keen on this push for lowering speed limits. Some roads yes, but changing the national speed limit like Wales are doing is crazy. Most roads are perfectly fine at 30.
My parents local council went overkill a few years back and designated all side roads as 20. Cost thousands putting up all the 20 signs, and the irony is most the roads are designed in a way that you can barely get above 20 as is.
On the flip side I know a private road that could easily be 40, but was reassigned as 20. As it's a private road literally no one sticks to it, but I never see anyone driving irresponsibly or dangerous along it, just not at the designated speed.

The speed awareness course is also frustratingly inaccurate. I did one a few years back after mistaking a 30 rode for a 40. They gave me a load of tips for how to avoide it in future; all the signs you can use to tell what speed a road should be if you can't see any signs in sight. Was completely useless advise as I've since found more roads that break the guidelines then stick to them.

In general I'd rather we just have roads with reasonable speed limits that most people are happy to stick to.
I remember years ago hearing that France drop their speed limits in poor conditions and thinking that was over complicated. But having now driven there I realise it is the reverse, their reduced speed limit is our standard limit, and in good conditions they effectively allow drivers to be more responsible.
 
On the topic of speeding; I think speeding is an issue, but I don’t think lowering the speed limit to 20mph will help with that.

People absolutely do speed through villages to a surprising degree, and I agree that it’s an issue. The village along from me recently had a non-signposted speed camera fitted on the main A48 road through the village, where the speed limit is 30mph. My grandad is the chairman of the Parish Council, so had access to the data from this speed camera, and he said that the highest speed registered was 76mph and that the top percentage of offenders that letters were being sent to were those doing between 60mph and 70mph… and this is in a 30mph road.

In terms of some roads that are becoming 20mph under the new Welsh legislation; I have driven along one of the trial roads that was lowered to 20mph. It was a bypass road, with relatively high fencing on both sides and possibly even a central reservation, if I’m remembering correctly. 20mph felt very slow on that particular road; I am by no means a fast driver, but on that road, I would easily have been comfortable doing at least 30mph, if not more, if the speed limit was no object.

It’s roads like that becoming 20mph that I fear might undermine the 20mph limits in areas where they’re genuinely needed. Rightly or wrongly, people will be more inclined to speed if they don’t feel the speed limit is appropriate for the road conditions, and that’s something that even agencies like the RAC have said about.

Like I said before, I don’t begrudge 20mph speed limits in town centres, in areas by schools, in residential side roads and such. However, I think that they’re unneeded on main A and B roads, and may even cause more harm than good.
 
Changing speed limits without doing anything to the roads themselves is largely ineffective as most people drive at a speed appropriate for the road they're on. If you want people to go slower, you have to design the roads so that driving fast doesn't feel safe. Relevant video essay from Not Just Bikes:


From: https://youtu.be/bglWCuCMSWc?si=vCkC3jnCj8-VQKs5

Very few people would take issue with pretty much all residential roads being reduced to 20mph but a large number of roads (specifically through routes) are designed for far higher speeds and a lower limit would be widely flouted.

Whether reduced speed limits should be used as a means of pushing people towards public transport is a separate argument. I'd like to see the UK make a proper effort in making trains a more attractive alternative to driving but currently the absurd ticket prices means they're often not a viable option even where a convenient service exists.
 
I don't mind doing 20 in more areas where appropriate. Bring it on. I think a total blanket change from 30 to 20 is a bit silly though for reasons pointed out already in the thread. I'm really getting sick of tail-gaiters though when trying to stick to what are sensible speed limits (give or take a few mph). I actually wish that the penalty for that was harsher than it is now and somehow easier to enforce (not sure how to do that). Why is everyone in such a rush? What's so good at the end of that golden road that you need to drive more dangerously to get to a minute earlier? Late for work? Set out at an appropriate time or just arrive late. Better to turn up late than to turn up dead.
 
Tim said:
Hold on!
I remember those ads. It was hit me at 40 and there's an 80% chance I'll die. Hit me at 30 and there's an 80% chance I'll live.
So are they lying to us now, did they lie to us in the past, or have all children developed bridal bones in the last 20 years?
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This is a weird view to take. Safety advice changes on a very regular basis due to various different reasons. Learnt that a lot with having a kid, where the advice 20-30 years ago to safe sleeping or travel is completely different to today.

I think the improved safety of cars for those inside the car is one of the main results of the lowering of limits. Plus the increase in larger cars within urban areas. Rich people love a Land Rover they don't actually need. Though I do have a SUV purely to fit wheelchair and assorted baby paraphernalia in there so I'm technically part of the problem, but actually is a necessity for my end.


The driving in the continent is very different to the UK. I always feel like learner drivers must have to go on motorways at points as they drive far more sensibly on those comparatively.

Driving is far more aggressive in the UK. I dread to think what would happen if we implemented an Autobahn style system for example with our quality of driving.

A review of on-going driving should come in, but people would hate to have their driving judged after having passed the test. I think everyone develops poor habits after a while of driving though.
 
You raise good points of issues that exist in current driving standards. The bit about SUVs is a critical one, because it's a bad trend adopted from America. They only started producing SUVs as it was a legal loop hole to tax cars as trucks. And yes the higher bonnet height does make them far more likley to kill pedestrians, potentially why they are reviewing speed limit changes as a quick fix.

The better fix to the actual problem is to place laws/taxes on car manufacturers to encourage them to move back into making escort style vehicles (same carrying capacity, far safer car design).

I also agree learners should have to drive in the motorway before they can pass their test. I was lucky to learn to drive near an A road that is practically a motorway, and it helped significantly.

I'm not actually sure that driving is far more aggressive in the UK though. I've driven in a few country's now, including Germany and I'd actually say their driving can be even more aggressive than ours.
I also had a surreal experience in Korea where the cars are actually built in with automatic speed reducers when approaching a speed camera. Wherever their isn't a speed camera I'd literally see people driving at any speed they wanted (away from built up areas at least).
 
Tim said:
Hold on!
I remember those ads. It was hit me at 40 and there's an 80% chance I'll die. Hit me at 30 and there's an 80% chance I'll live.
So are they lying to us now, did they lie to us in the past, or have all children developed bridal bones in the last 20 years?

I'm not keen on this push for lowering speed limits. Some roads yes, but changing the national speed limit like Wales are doing is crazy. Most roads are perfectly fine at 30.
My parents local council went overkill a few years back and designated all side roads as 20. Cost thousands putting up all the 20 signs, and the irony is most the roads are designed in a way that you can barely get above 20 as is.
On the flip side I know a private road that could easily be 40, but was reassigned as 20. As it's a private road literally no one sticks to it, but I never see anyone driving irresponsibly or dangerous along it, just not at the designated speed.

The speed awareness course is also frustratingly inaccurate. I did one a few years back after mistaking a 30 rode for a 40. They gave me a load of tips for how to avoide it in future; all the signs you can use to tell what speed a road should be if you can't see any signs in sight. Was completely useless advise as I've since found more roads that break the guidelines then stick to them.

In general I'd rather we just have roads with reasonable speed limits that most people are happy to stick to.
I remember years ago hearing that France drop their speed limits in poor conditions and thinking that was over complicated. But having now driven there I realise it is the reverse, their reduced speed limit is our standard limit, and in good conditions they effectively allow drivers to be more responsible.
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Hold on right there...
This was a speed awareness course...
That is what she probably said, but I wasn't really concentrating by then...we were two hours in!
Could have been life changing injuries.
 
I think as a general rule of thumb it can be agreed that the faster you drive, the more severe the injury is likely to be if you hit a pedestrian or another vehicle. I'm always amazed at why people want to travel everywhere as fast as they possibly can, clearly exceeding speed limits in the process. It's very dumb really, when you think about it.
 
You can't force Learners to drive on a motorway.


I live 80ish miles from the nearest motorway...

If you live in deep dark Cornwall it's over 100 miles

If you're living towards the far north of Scotland, it's over 200 miles to the nearest motorway

That would mean a 400 mile long driving lesson.
 
Should at least be a theory test for motorway driving.

Literally just a 5 minute online course telling everyone not to hog the middle lane please.
 
Hogging the middle lane is now an offence, and part of the highway code, so is part of driver education anyway.
The problem is enforcement...like mobile phone use...the law is ignored by many.
 
MattyH said:
You can't force Learners to drive on a motorway.


I live 80ish miles from the nearest motorway...

If you live in deep dark Cornwall it's over 100 miles

If you're living towards the far north of Scotland, it's over 200 miles to the nearest motorway

That would mean a 400 mile long driving lesson.
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It's a fair point, but everyone who drives is going to end up on a motorway at some point. Even someone living at the far ends of the UK.
To drive on a motorway with literally no experience could have similar consequences to someone driving manual for the first time, having only learnt to drive an automatic. Sure they are almost the same thing, but there's some major differences that take getting used to.

As RicketyCricket said including it in the theory, with it's own section like the hazard perception test, sounds a fair compromise.
 
BarryZola said:
I think as a general rule of thumb it can be agreed that the faster you drive, the more severe the injury is likely to be if you hit a pedestrian or another vehicle. I'm always amazed at why people want to travel everywhere as fast as they possibly can, clearly exceeding speed limits in the process. It's very dumb really, when you think about it.
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Driving back from my parents on Monday and there were a NUMBER of absolute idiots on the road.

There's a 17% gradient hill where I had someone up my arse for the downhill duration. Another driver behind me tried to overtake 2 cars on the single carriageway A road and had to abort overtaking me as suddenly realised he wouldn't make it so had to quickly dive back in behind me which could've caused an accident.

Then yesterday had everyone rubber necking a crash on the motorway.

On the other side you have those who drive well under the speed limit which in turn can be dangerous for others. Though I might still be salty from the driving test that marked me down for doing so even though the conditions made it a logical choice.

I think there should be something in place that driving licences have to be renewed every so often. That you can potentially legally drive for 60+ years without having to be made aware of changes to the Highway Code or ensuring that your own abilities are still sufficient to drive safely.
 
I've always thought there should be a retest every 5 years or so. There are so many people on our roads who are terrible drivers at very basic skill and awareness level.
 
I agree, but the driving test system will need a complete overhaul. I know currently it's a nightmare to book a test, and that's without requiring generations of people to do "refresher tests"

Does anyone know if any other countries have a law that requires regular renewal of licenses?
 
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