What are your thoughts on the introduction of 20mph speed limits in built-up areas?

[Matt N]

Hi guys. Some of you may be aware that on 17th September, the Welsh Government are set to reduce the default speed limit for all built-up and residential areas (aka areas with street lights no more than 200yds apart) from 30mph to 20mph. Transport for London are also changing 125 miles’ worth of London roads to 20mph by 2024. In essence, 20mph speed limits are becoming far more common in built-up areas around the UK, and the introduction of these speed limits is a contentious topic. With this in mind, I’d be keen to know; what are your thoughts on the introduction of 20mph speed limits in built-up areas to replace the default 30mph? Do you agree with the reduction, or do you think that the status quo of 30mph is better?

Personally, as someone who’s been learning to drive for over a year, my stance on 20mph speed limits very much depends on the road.

There are instances where I agree with the introduction of 20mph limits; for instance, I absolutely agree that 20mph is more than fast enough to be driving through the hustle and bustle of a crowded town centre. Near me, town centres like Lydney, Chepstow and Monmouth have enforced 20mph speed limits, and in those instances, I agree that 20mph is plenty fast enough; driving through these towns requires an awful lot of hazard perception. I also agree that 20mph is plenty on side roads with some sort of other hazard; for instance, I absolutely agree with 20mph speed limits outside schools and such, and I also agree that quiet residential side roads probably don’t necessitate a limit higher than 20mph.

However, I do not agree with the blanket introduction of 20mph speed limits on all 30mph roads that the likes of the Welsh Government are pursuing. Under the broad-brush legislation that the Welsh Government are proposing, numerous stretches of main road will become 20mph, and when I drive in Monmouth in particular, I drive along numerous stretches of road that already have a 20mph speed limit where there’s no obvious hazard, and I don’t personally believe that the road conditions call for a speed limit that slow. I absolutely get the safety argument, and in some of the instances I mentioned above like town centres and roads near schools, I think that does have legs, but on some of the roads that are proposed for lowering to 20mph or where a 20mph limit exists, I don’t believe that hazards exist that would necessarily necessitate the lowering of the speed limit beyond 30mph. On main “A” roads in particular, I don’t think the speed limit needs lowering to 20mph, personally. 20mph is a hard speed to drive at, particularly where the road conditions don’t call for it, and numerous people may well exceed that limit; recent DfT research suggests that 85% of drivers exceed 20mph in currently-imposed 20mph speed limit areas (https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlto...uks-department-for-transport/?sh=45ca7ca75c9a).

So in conclusion, I don’t disagree with 20mph speed limits overall. I agree with them in areas such as town centres, streets outside of schools, and other places where there are meaningful hazards that mean that the road conditions don’t call for overly fast driving. However, I don’t personally agree with the blanket introduction of 20mph speed limits in all 30mph zones. In particular, I think that stretches of main road currently at 30mph do not need reducing to 20mph, and in some cases, I don’t think lowering the limit to 20mph is always necessary or likely to be of any meaningful benefit to safety.

But what are your thoughts? Do you agree with the introduction of 20mph speed limits, or do you think that those roads should stay at 30mph?

 

[Jb85]

All for it

 

[Plastic Person]

 

[Benzin]

Already been a thing for years, certainly started coming into place in London before I moved north.

No issues with it. Most of the time in more built up roads you can't drive much faster anyway due to the number of cars parked on the road.

 

[rob666]

Hit a kid at 20, they will probably live.
Hit a child at 30, they will probably die.
That was what I got on my speed awareness course recently.
All for it.

 

[GaryH]

I have no problem with a 20mph zone where it is needed or road safety principles - but to introduce them across all of Wales is plain stupid and not needed.

Anyone who drives in wales can see the state of the roads. Potholes everywhere yet seemingly no money to fix them. The Welsh NHS is in a right state with no money to fix it. Tourism has seen a decline.

Yet the Welsh government can spend at least £33 million putting up the signs and the true cost to the Welsh economy is estimated to be £4.3 billion.

The real danger here is that the majority of the main roads in wales which are 30 do not need to be 20, and the majority of drivers will probably ignore the new limits. This will cause two problems - 1. More aggressive and frustrated drivers with risky overtaking , and 2. Drivers not recognising the importance of genuine 20mph zones in danger areas due to the new “norm”. Even the police have said they will not be able to enforce these new limits.

In addition to this a government own study found that emissions actually go up in 20mph zones not down. Also, as seen on page 61 of the study , Brake the road safety charity are against a blanket introduction of 20mph zones for the reason listed above regarding lessening the importance of genuine 20mph zones.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/757302/20mph-technical-report.pdf

I can do 30mph in 5th gear in my car but need to stay in 2nd to do 20. There’s no need for it , and as can be seen in other areas with a Labour council this is just more anti car. We are experiencing the same in Exeter with LTNs being set up without any consultation and of course Dictator Khan in London with the expansion of the ULEZ zones.

This isn’t about road safety but about control and I am definitely not for it. I won’t be driving up to wales much in the future apart from the visit my dad and then home again. Welsh tourism and business will take a massive hit from this. The sooner Dickford is removed from office the better for Wales.

Edit : it’s also worth pointing out that in the trial areas where the zones were first tried they were not a success, with locals voting to have them removed after seeing just 1 in 5 drivers doing 20 and an increase in pollution levels and traffic.

What really concerns me is how our rights are being eroded where councils and governments are going ahead with schemes like these without any consultation or vote from the public. And even when there is one and the majority vote against, they still go ahead anyway.

It’s becoming more common practice and other countries which do this are North Korea, China and Russia. We are supposed to be a democracy but it’s very worrying the direction we are heading.

 

[pluk]

I'm very much for 20mph on small residential streets, places where the only use is to get to residential properties and the roads have been designed as such, being quite narrow with no verges. Steets like mine...



But as soon as you get to through roads leading on to other places they will mostly have been designed differently, being wider and with grass verges. Those roads don't need to drop to 20 across the board, there are already measures in place to mitigate against the risks.

I certainly agree too that over use of any safety measure devalues that measure when it is absolutely needed.

Any blanket type change seems dumb, but then you can end up with incredibly messy roads with ugly signs posted everywhere. The most sensible approach is probably 20 mph being the default unless 30mph is posted, but those locations need to be worked out and signposted in advance. Not a small job!

 

[James]

On some roads it's needed, so I agree with 20mph in residential areas.

The Wales blanket rule just has no thought to it. I've noticed my council has starting putting up signs in preparation for the changes in September. On some main roads there seems to be variable speed limits coming. One road near me seems like it will be 20mph, then 30mph for a small stretch (over a bridge), then fall back to 20mph... I'm sure drivers will follow that!

I can see the changes in Wales causing more harm than good.

 

[GaryH]

The other problem is for drivers who live in England where the Highway Code states the speed limit as 30mph unless otherwise stated, who then have to remember in wales it’s 20mph.

As Pluk said, on narrow residential roads fair enough, but some of the wider and safer roads in wales which have always been 30 will drop to 20. To give an example, a road I know well near my dads house was always 40mph. Never an accident on it. The road is wide and straight. A few years ago they dropped it to 30. Now it’s dropping to 20. No reason for it - still no accidents, but there we go.

Rather than endure the pain of trying to drive around wales and give business my money, I will after Sept only go to my dads house and that’s it.

No more visits to the bay, or the city centre for shopping, or any of the tourist attractions.

 

[rob666]

It is tricky in some residential areas...I live on a main road, lots of kids playing out, but a main through route, so it is 30, and will remain so.
Unfortunately, it is also a drag straight flat half mile as well, so many can manage sixty on a Friday evening, despite the speed camera.
Quite a break test, but that is all.
Not sure a blanket 20 limit would be much benefit overall.

 

[GaryH]

At least they could have been sensible and raised the speed limits to 30 between 11pm and 6am - I don’t recall seeing many young kids out playing in the streets at those times!

I’m convinced it’s the welsh government trying to reduce the amount of compensation it’s paying drivers for pothole and road damage to vehicles. At 20mph you’re less likely to damage your tyre or suspension hitting one of the many potholes.

 

[pluk]

It is tricky in some residential areas...I live on a main road, lots of kids playing out, but a main through route, so it is 30, and will remain so.
Unfortunately, it is also a drag straight flat half mile as well, so many can manage sixty on a Friday evening, despite the speed camera.
Quite a break test, but that is all.
Not sure a blanket 20 limit would be much benefit overall.

Yep, actually enforcing the limits already posted would be of far greater benefit than changing the limits and everyone still ignoring them.

But somehow catching speeders has become socially a bad thing. My favourite response is the ever present 'haven't the police got anything better to do?', the answer of course being yes, they have loads of better things to do but they can't because you are choosing to speed. If people weren't doing it the police could be off doing something better.

Somehow there needs to be a shift in public opinion, like has happened with drink driving which used to be the something police shouldn't have been enforcing, but now is completely socially unacceptable.

 

[GaryH]

Problem is that the police always seem to be advertising the fact they are catching motorists, but when people need them to attend a burglary, or assault, or shoplifting, they don’t seem interested.

We had our work building broken into by kids the other day. We got cctv footage of their faces and offered it to the police. They didn’t want it. Just not interested. Yet someone removed a newly installed bollard in one of the LTNs no one wants and they were there for hours sat in the car watching drivers to see who went through the gap.

I appreciate the police have a hard job made harder by the courts imposing far too lenient sentences but we also can’t blame the public when there seems to be so much effort and focus put on the roads. We already have some of the safest roads in the EU if not the world.

Speed is a minor factor in road accidents (stats suggest around 7% of fatalities are caused by speeding). I’d rather see more police out in cars looking for drunk drivers, walking the streets, and actually turning up to crimes, than sat in hidden vans trying to catch Mr/Mrs X who have a clean licence for the past 40 years who have stayed 5mph over the limit on a road where probably the limit is too slow anyway.

 

[Plastic Person]

We already have some of the safest roads in the EU

*Had.

The random, transient nature of police speed traps will always feel like a scam to most, the naughty corner jobsworth side of what is perceived to be 'proper' work. People hate getting caught in this instance primarily as they usually get away with it so often. It creates revenue, but I'm not sure it fundamentally alters behaviour long-term. The recent clarification that drivers could be fined themselves for alerting others to speed traps on social media or with their lights feels particularly draconian, but also almost definitely local tabloid bluster rather than anything I've ever heard of being enforced or taken to court.

@pluk makes a good point that drunk driving feels rightfully unacceptable in a way that it never did even twenty years ago. But I feel that the taboo emerges from the driver's wider behaviour and perceived lack of care for others, whereas driving a car is an expression of power for a lot of people. It might sound a bit wishy-washy, but the psychology of driving is quite intense and extremely individual. For many people, being in their car is one of the few times that they do feel 'in the driver's seat', literally and in clunking metaphor. As such, I can't imagine what it would take to get millions of people to slow down.

I used to really enjoy cars as a younger man, but getting older (and living in a city with good public transport, admittedly), their potential to easily kill or injure versus their convenience is something I consider more and more.

 

[pluk]

Problem is that the police always seem to be advertising the fact they are catching motorists, but when people need them to attend a burglary, or assault, or shoplifting, they don’t seem interested.

We had our work building broken into by kids the other day. We got cctv footage of their faces and offered it to the police. They didn’t want it. Just not interested. Yet someone removed a newly installed bollard in one of the LTNs no one wants and they were there for hours sat in the car watching drivers to see who went through the gap.

I appreciate the police have a hard job made harder by the courts imposing far too lenient sentences but we also can’t blame the public when there seems to be so much effort and focus put on the roads. We already have some of the safest roads in the EU if not the world.

Speed is a minor factor in road accidents (stats suggest around 7% of fatalities are caused by speeding). I’d rather see more police out in cars looking for drunk drivers, walking the streets, and actually turning up to crimes, than sat in hidden vans trying to catch Mr/Mrs X who have a clean licence for the past 40 years who have stayed 5mph over the limit on a road where probably the limit is too slow anyway.

You couldn't have proved my point harder. Your way of thinking on this IS the problem.

The reality is the resources spent on roads policing is miniscule compared to that spent on crime.

The reality is the speed check location are targeted to based on crash statistics and reports from them public.

The reality is nearly all road policing operations that involve the use of speed traps give results for other road and crime offences. Criminals don't usually adhere to the rules of the road

The reality is if police didn't have to spend resources on upholding basic driving standards on the road there just might have been the resources to get straight round to your burglary...

 

[GaryH]

I’m not wanting to get into a big debate about policing and I agree generally with your earlier post and realise how hard a job policing is in the UK- but you and I can’t escape the fact that in general, the public are feeling very unhappy with policing in the UK and a large proportion of this feeling stems from how easy they focus on drivers and how difficult it is to get a resolution to anything other than a driving offence. This may not just be down to the police but also the courts and legal system.

And while I accept crime also involves drivers transporting drugs across the country etc. it does feel like it’s easier to prosecute a motorist than it is a burglar.

That’s not just my feeling but also that of a large proportion of the British public especially those who have been the victim of crimes. That’s no disrespect to you or others in the job, I’m just saying how the feeling is at the moment.

 

[GaryH]

*Had

Last I check our roads were 2nd to Sweden who held the first place for lowest number of fatalities per 100,000 population (2.9)

If it’s gone up since then we could argue these speed cameras, lower limits etc haven’t actually worked. Other causes may be down to driver education, training standards, pedestrians not paying attention, but I’d say a lot could be down to poor road surfaces (lack of anti skid surfaces, dodging potholes etc)

 

[RicketyCricket]

Drive a lot around London and I don't mind it.

It's not a huge difference from 30 and can save lives. Not just people, pets too.

Yet the Welsh government can spend at least £33 million putting up the signs and the true cost to the Welsh economy is estimated to be £4.3 billion.

Sorry, how much? Are you sure?

Leek Signs would do it for a tenner.

 

[pluk]

And while I accept crime also involves drivers transporting drugs across the country etc. it does feel like it’s easier to prosecute a motorist than it is a burglar.

Well, of course it is? What exactly could be done about that? An offence of absolute fact will always be a lot easier to prove and prosecute than on where mens rea has to be proven. Does that mean the 'easier' offense shouldn't be prosecured, that rule shouldn't be upheld, just because it's easy? It's an absolute nonsense.

It is, of course, impossible to prosecute someone for speeding if they simply choose not to speed. Its not a difficult concept and it's worked for me for the 25 years I've had a driving licence.

That’s not just my feeling but also that of a large proportion of the British public especially those who have been the victim of crimes. That’s no disrespect to you or others in the job, I’m just saying how the feeling is at the moment.

And that was exactly my point. The country is full of people like you have a strong opinion based on demonstrably wrong 'facts' they 'know' and a whole heap of very broken logic.

I do kind of get it, when your stolen bike was never found but you did get caught speeding. But one of those things would be your fault, not the polices. *the royal you!

Speeding really should make you the social poriah that a drink driver is considered. Somehow the masses are cheering the speeders on as they race past your kids school and booing those trying to stop them. It's madness.

A genuine question. Do you think speeding is actually acceptable?

 

[GaryH]

It’s how you define speeding.

Going past a school at entry/exit time doing 40mph in a 20 - yes that’s speeding and dangerous too.

Doing 30 past a school at 2am on a 20mph road - no I don’t consider that to be dangerous.

Same on other roads, doing 45 in a 40, is that dangerous? Probably not no whereas doing over 50 would be classed as speeding.

I could do 10mph in a shopping centre car park and that could be dangerous and too fast for the conditions.

It’s about inappropriate speed. And for the record, I’ve never ever seen a speed camera van or officer outside a school when the kids are about.

Also for the record I’ve never had a speeding fine, I do drive sensibly but I also don’t agree with some of the speed limits now being inflicted on some roads which don’t warrant it. We have a brand new dual carriageway down with us, clear as the eye can see, it’s been given a 50 limit. In the past it would have been 70 as per the Highway Code.

As for drink or drug driving that’s something I detest. This is someone who is not in control of their body or how their body reacts - different to someone who might have done the advanced driving test, been driving 30 years and who has gone a few mph over the limit. I feel the two are totally separate.