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Why has the UK been seemingly unable to top Nemesis?

Matt N

Matt N

TS Member
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Mako (SeaWorld Orlando)
Hi guys. If you look at international roller coaster polls, and talk to enthusiasts about their favourite UK roller coasters, the one that almost predominantly comes on top is Nemesis at Alton Towers. It is still most people’s favourite roller coaster in the UK even 27 years on from its construction. But coaster tech has progressed a lot since 1994, and the favourites in most other countries are far newer, so my question to you is; why has the UK seemingly been unable to top Nemesis? Why, 27 years on from its construction, is Nemesis arguably the country’s only ride that has such wide enthusiast appeal?


I personally think it’s because the act of “topping Nemesis” in itself is a somewhat big ask. The ride was the Steel Vengeance of its day, and still holds a huge legacy among enthusiasts now. It’s definitely become a true fan favourite in a way that not many rides can (I’ll admit I’m not as big of a fan as most; I like Nemesis, don’t get me wrong, but it’s only my #6 UK coaster).


But what are your thoughts? Do you even think the UK will ever top Nemesis?
 
It was definitely a new scale of themed thrill experience for its time, so it stuck with people. Team that with the fact it is a very good ride that has not significantly deteriorated over time and you have the recipe for people rating it highly through a combination of its bare merits, legend and nostalgia.

You could argue there’s not been another shift up in quality and innovation as significant as Nemesis since. Whilst there may be better rides that come along now or in the future, it’s difficult to imagine it would have the same effect on the industry as 1994. Some people will always hold Nemesis as their favourite.
 
Pretty creative, impactful coaster that packs a huge punch and is a very exciting experience from start to finish. Could easily do that with another coaster but there hasnt been the drive or the focus on that as much since. With the parks that have the money to build such a thing, it's been about marketing gimmicks for a long long time instead.
 
Also back in 1992 when Six Flags and B&M came up with the inverted coaster format it was probably a pretty crazy thing. I think back in the late 80s, coasters were still quite predictable in a way. Suddenly putting the train below the track was a brand new thing.
Subsequent innovations have been more iterative, flying coasters are only a slight change from inverted. A vertical drop is only a step change from a big steep drop. But what Batman and Nemesis did in the early 90s changed the rollercoaster industry I think and the innovation of moving the train below the track was such a big change.
 
It was a new ride type (Europe's first) and combined with Towers presentation it immediately became an iconic UK coaster and something people would talk about in school. Also Altons location helped, relatively middle of the country so accessible for more people easily compared to it being built in say London or Blackpool.

Why hasn't it being topped? Everything built since of a similar scale (Icon, Smiler, Swarm) seemed to split opinion too much, people making comparisons to similar coasters in other countries (look at the continuing Nemesis vs Inferno talk we get now). When Nemesis opened barring coaster club members I'd doubt anyone riding could even conceive of such a coaster existing.

More recently it would seem only the Merlin parks could afford the capital expenditure to top Nemesis their parks all seem hampered in different ways (height restrictions, Swarm not bumping attendance etc). Plus they want thrilling coasters that are likely to appeal to the largest audience possible (Thirteen, Wickerman) so us getting a Zadra, or a Taron seems unlikely.
 
jon81uk said:
Suddenly putting the train below the track was a brand new thing.
Subsequent innovations have been more iterative,
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But Arrow had already done suspended coasters so the B&M version was iterative really, it was a suspended coaster that could do inversions. It was just a lot more thrilling

There were a lot of creative steel innovations going on at that time, but the B&M inverter came out best for quality and experience really. Alton did very well to get it while it was so fresh
 
OilyWater said:
But Arrow had already done suspended coasters so the B&M version was iterative really, it was a suspended coaster that could do inversions. It was just a lot more thrilling
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I suppose it was really, but it just feels like a massive leap from Vampire to Nemesis but only a small leap from Nemesis to Air.

OilyWater said:
There were a lot of creative steel innovations going on at that time, but the B&M inverter came out best for quality and experience really.
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Imagine if they had gone with the pipeline twister coaster instead.

OilyWater said:
Alton did very well to get it while it was so fresh
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and given how bigger Tussauds (Merlin) is now compared to 30 years ago I don't think the negotiation that John Wardley and team did with Six Flags would happen nowadays.
 
For me, it the fact that Nemesis was build into the ground as appose to above it. Going down into the ground through the tunnels and the near misses when you suddenly swirl out of the way of the rocks makes you feel like you are flying. Unlike most coasters of it time, it continues to maintain it momentum and thrills all the way around, right up until the end.
 
jon81uk said:
I don't think the negotiation that John Wardley and team did with Six Flags would happen nowadays.
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Id have thought Merlin being bigger now would mean far more likely to get latest ride hardware, Merlin were pretty quick to buy wingriders.

But they dont anymore, for valid reasons really, the time of UK parks buying whatever the new expensive B&M model is has faded away. It was worth it for Nemesis, less so for Air but not so much the others. UK parks arent in the right state anymore and have bigger priorities.

I wish UK parks had been more on the ball with modern wooden and launch coasters instead in the last 10 years.

Air was still a big step to be fair, it's much more engineered than Nemesis and took some years longer to prototype
 
OilyWater said:
Id have thought Merlin being bigger now would mean far more likely to get latest ride hardware, Merlin were pretty quick to buy wingriders.
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I meant more with Merlin being bigger there is more chance that Six Flags would have kept the plans secret for longer and it would have had to wait until B&M had it on sale more generally. I just don’t think the negotiations John Wardley did to get access to the new hardware quicker would happen as easily because Merlin and six Flags are more in competition.
 
I think that @John_P answers this question perfectly with a point which I hadn’t even considered.

Nowadays we have too much to compare a new coaster with. Nemesis was a breed of its own in the U.K. and, to an extent, Europe.

Couple that with the fact that these days people are more well travelled, and you can conclude that no new coaster will ever really have the impact Nemesis did. We have big coasters everywhere now, and anyone trying to make a coaster which people will think is the world’s best, will sadly always come up against plenty of people who don’t agree.
 
In terms of this question, I’m not necessarily asking about Nemesis’ impact and whether that will ever be beaten, because for various reasons (reasons that many have already cited), I think that’s very unlikely. I’m asking from a mere ride experience point of view.

Why is it that our parks have been unable to pull off the types of universally loved ride experiences that parks abroad are pulling off, even when utilising the same ride types as those much-loved rides abroad? Will a UK park ever pull off a more universally loved ride experience than Nemesis? I think that many, many rides abroad are now more universally loved and higher ranked by most than Nemesis, but that doesn’t seem to have happened in the UK yet. Will the same wave of popularity as some of the recent hits abroad (I’m talking the likes of Taron, Helix, Shambhala, Untamed, Hyperion, Zadra etc.) ever hit a modern UK ride?
 
Oh I wouldn’t say that Nemesis is universally loved if that’s what you mean.

Even many enthusiasts prefer other rides, and I’d say that for even more of the general public, it’s not their favourite ride at Alton. It’s just a ride which set a new standard.
 
Matt N said:
Why is it that our parks have been unable to pull off the types of universally loved ride experiences that parks abroad are pulling off, even when utilising the same ride types as those much-loved rides abroad? Will a UK park ever pull off a more universally loved ride experience than Nemesis?
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I would say Smiler and Wickerman have both come close in terms of being a “must-do” ride that people go to Alton Towers specifically for.

but it’s very hard to catch lightning in a bottle and the original nemesis had all the right conditions, Europe’s first inverted coaster, the landscape and terrain being well used and generally the support of the Tussauds group pushing the park. Don’t forget in the few years leading up to Nemesis there was Runaway Mine Train and the Haunted House, then in 1994 Nemesis, Peter Rabbit on Ice and Toyland Tours all opened in the same year!
For Thorpe Park it could be said that Collosus had the similar effect on the park, lots of investment before and after and a well designed coaster using the landscape and allowing good off ride viewing. In comparison Nemesis Inferno and Swarm are “car park coasters”.
 
jon81uk said:
more chance that Six Flags would have kept the plans secret for longer and it would have had to wait until B&M had it on sale more generally. I just don’t think the negotiations John Wardley did to get access to the new hardware quicker would happen as easily because Merlin and six Flags are more in competition.
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To be honest I heard the story is exaggerated, B&M were looking for a second buyer and John Wardley just happened to catch wind of it a little early so they let him in on it. I think Merlin have the cash and influence to buy whatever they liked these days but choose not to, or the folks making these decisions about ride hardware are just not too interested, unlike John Wardley who was really on the ball with new rides globally.
 
Matt N said:
. I’m asking from a mere ride experience point of view.

Why is it that our parks have been unable to pull off the types of universally loved ride experiences that parks abroad are pulling off, even when utilising the same ride types as those much-loved rides abroad?
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Because developments like Nemesis aren't allowed within Merlin any more, where someone with a vision is trusted to know what is required and given the freedom to deliver it.

Decisions on big projects are now by committee with a gimmic and/or killer image for marketing to use being the driving factor rather than any consideration for the actual experience delivered. That development strategy will never deliver excellence, it will deliver mediocrity.

The mechanism for 'another Nemesis' simply doesn't exist within Merlin, and Merlin are currently the only UK player big enough to deliver one if they were compitent.
 
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OilyWater said:
To be honest I heard the story is exaggerated, B&M were looking for a second buyer and John Wardley just happened to catch wind of it a little early so they let him in on it. I think Merlin have the cash and influence to buy whatever they liked these days but choose not to, or the folks making these decisions about ride hardware are just not too interested, unlike John Wardley who was really on the ball with new rides globally.
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It's probable JW did exaggerate when telling his stories but when he gave the story at the Nemesis 10th event (I feel old) he made out that he got wind Six Flags were doing something unheard of, asked them what it is, said "but we already have Vampire at CWoA" was told but this one inverts and then negotiated bringing it to Europe as AT isn't in competition with Six Flags. Even if he is fairly truthful I couldn't see that happening again.

But of course even in the 2000s Tussauds Alton Towers had the cash and influence to get new ride types, Air was a new concept developed with B&M and it went into AT first (then Six Flags shortly after). In theory Merlin still have that cash and influence and they want the "worlds first" tagline but seem to lack the drive to fully deliver. They seem to have some passionate people leading one-off projects (Bradley Wynne, John Burton) but doesn't have the feel of the overall drive JW seemed to bring to Tussauds in the 90s.
 
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