Women's safety on streets

[Danza91]

It's posts like this we need to be careful with when writing. They can cause these debates to get out of hand. If you deliberately target "some people" (when it's clear to everyone who you're talking about) and effectively tell them they are wrong of course they get mad and start ranting.
The way Craig said it in the previous post was perfect as it acknowledge both sides without undermining either of their points. That's how you get people to see each other's side.

For the record I know that post wasn't aimed at me and sorry to single out yours Danza91. We've all made posts like this (there are so many other examples in this thread), yours was just a good way to highlight how words matter because it quoted Craig's as well.

Where did I say anyone was wrong? I said I don't think they have even at least tried to understand the points being made, and I still don't.

I'll reiterate, saying 'not all men' when women are speaking about their experiences of being assaulted/harassed by men literally adds nothing to the conversation, it's a nothing statement, all it simply achieves is invalidating the experiences of women. As a man I'm tired of seeing men do this, us men need to do better.

 

[tayspru]

Can I just point out that posts like “well I’m a man and I wouldn’t walk down a dark alley alone EITHER” are completely missing the point . Woman are harassed (and worse) in broad daylight , whether that’s catcalling or unwanted attention , to the all too common cases where women are assaulted or even killed in broad daylight .

Women know it’s “not all men” , but if you stand by while you’re friend makes an unwanted advance , wolf whistles, makes inappropriate remarks or comments - that’s contributing to the issue . It’s easy to reduce it to an issue of “women are scared they’ll be physically attacked” but it’s a wider problem than that, and one that fundamentally comes down to women being seen as lesser by far too many , and the “good men” too often standing by and letting the little things slide.

For what it’s worth , I’m a gay man - it isn’t women that are shouting homophobic comments at me in the street, or that will try and start a fight - it’s always men.

 

[BigT]

But the OP stated all women and as can be seen that’s not true, also a lot of men have also suffered from the same anxieties but that’s not cool to talk about and just gets dismissed.
I’ve also been sexually harassed by girls and women before so it isn’t a one way street and should never be treated as one, that’s half the problem.
However that’s not to belittle the situation, it’s just putting forward the other side, I also have a 14 year old daughter so do understand the anxieties of young girls today, I see daily the amount of drivel given out by social media both on how they should look perfect to attract males and then at the same time telling them not to go outside or some man will kill them.

The situation is certainly better now than 20 years ago so to say things are worse now is not true, things have improved tremendously and law and enforcement has also improved, the unfortunate situation with the young lady being killed by an off duty police officer used to be a far more regular occurrence with far more serial attacks going on. (Not all of the perpetrators police officers I should add)
It’s also true that sexism has improved over the last couple of decades, just look at some of the old tv programs shown on Gold etc. women were treated appallingly sometimes just because they were women.

I don’t really know where else to go with this thread if I’m honest, I can personally appreciate both sides of the discussion from personal experience but the real problem from what I can see now and going forward is social media, how it’s used and how it’s regulated.

 

[Tim]

Where did I say anyone was wrong? I said I don't think they have even at least tried to understand the points being made, and I still don't.

I'll reiterate, saying 'not all men' when women are speaking about their experiences of being assaulted/harassed by men literally adds nothing to the conversation, it's a nothing statement, all it simply achieves is invalidating the experiences of women. As a man I'm tired of seeing men do this, us men need to do better.

I guess what I'm saying is the only way you'll "win" a debate and change peoples mind is to consider how the person reading your post will feel when they see it.

If you tell someone they 'aren't trying to understand' it will come across to them as saying 'I think you're an idiot and not listening'. Which if the person is trying to engage will make them angry, and they'll really stop listening.
But if you say 'I think you missed the point' and explain why then maybe they'll get it.

In the context of this discussion its unfortunate the first post ended by saying men. I can completely get why people reacted badly because the post reads as 'I am upset and men are the problem'. But that wasn't what was meant, I think most of us get that now. Looping back around by highlighting it isn't helping (which is why this is the last time I'm mentioning it).

What I do want to disscus is if there's anything we can do to make the real problem better. Initially my reaction was 'there's nothing I can do because criminals are criminals'. But actually Heidi, Craig and Benzin all touched on points that we can improve on to make harassment less acceptable. And if harassment is less common I guess it would make it easier to spot actual predatory male behaviour before it develops into criminal acts.

 

[Funcone]

Not everything can be solved by politicians, but I do think they have to shoulder more of the responsibility. I was involved in a court case as a witness a few years ago. It eventually collapsed, because they were unable to find time in court to hear the case, and the police kept on failing to turn up with the CCTV footage.

One time I was sitting in the witness room at the crown court (I’m sure there’s a proper name for it) and I got chatting to a woman who had been the victim of alleged domestic violence. The case had rumbled on for 3 years and been adjourned 6 times. This kind of thing happens all the time. Cut backs to the police, over a third of courts closing, big reductions in legal aid… I’d really recommend reading a book called The Secret Barrister. The legal system is on its knees. A whole range of crimes, including rape and domestic violence, are collapsing simply because no one’s there to hear the evidence. Victims find themselves unable to move on with their lives, and each time it goes to court and gets adjourned again, they’re forced to relive their traumas.

People talk about defunding the police. The current government’s already done a pretty good job of that. No wonder a lot of crime doesn’t get reported.

 

[Tim]

Isn't defunding the police an American thing? I was under the impression it was because the Police over there are the catch all for any public service without its own department. So what they actually mean is stop getting the police to do stuff that isn't there job and only pay them to do policing.

At least that's how it was explained to me. I don't know if it applies in the UK as well.

Either way it's anouther example of a rubbish phrase because until it's explained it gives people the wrong impression.

 

[Jonathan]

Not everything can be solved by politicians, but I do think they have to shoulder more of the responsibility. I was involved in a court case as a witness a few years ago. It eventually collapsed, because they were unable to find time in court to hear the case, and the police kept on failing to turn up with the CCTV footage.

One time I was sitting in the witness room at the crown court (I’m sure there’s a proper name for it) and I got chatting to a woman who had been the victim of alleged domestic violence. The case had rumbled on for 3 years and been adjourned 6 times. This kind of thing happens all the time. Cut backs to the police, over a third of courts closing, big reductions in legal aid… I’d really recommend reading a book called The Secret Barrister. The legal system is on its knees. A whole range of crimes, including rape and domestic violence, are collapsing simply because no one’s there to hear the evidence. Victims find themselves unable to move on with their lives, and each time it goes to court and gets adjourned again, they’re forced to relive their traumas.

People talk about defunding the police. The current government’s already done a pretty good job of that. No wonder a lot of crime doesn’t get reported.

The Secret Barrister's books (and Twitter account) are excellent at showing just how broken the legal system in this country is. It's no wonder people don't get justice when the system is so appallingly underfunded.

 

[Rick]

Not everything can be solved by politicians, but I do think they have to shoulder more of the responsibility.

I agree, which is why I think we as a society need to be better at determining tangible outcomes to campaign on, rather than posting platitudes on social media, or joining directionless organisations without clear goals. That is not a strategy for change.

"Fix climate change" and "Make the streets safer" are the starting point for a starting point, but we don't get much further than that on so many issues.

 

[Funcone]

The thing is there are criminologists who’ve spent years and sometimes decades studying how to make the streets safer. But they aren’t necessarily listened to. It’s not that no one’s done any research or got any ideas. But politicians are often more concerned about soundbites and what looks good on social media (or a Daily Mail headline!), than in engaging with the nitty gritty detail. Not to mention that in recent times the main focus on the criminal justice system has been on cutting costs and being cheap, rather than on trying to achieve some kind of actual justice.

With the recent pandemic I was hoping that experts might get a bit more airtime. They have as far as epidemiology’s concerned, but I don’t think it’s really filtered into other areas of public policy. The UK spends a lot of money on universities and research, but I don’t think we always take advantage of that big pool of knowledge.

Another real issue is that solving a lot of these problems is a slow process. On both sides of the political spectrum, it’s got very zeitgeisty. Politicians jump on whatever’s trending in the media, and then before any action’s been taken, the public get bored, people’s attention moves on, and any plans get quietly dropped.