Parc Astérix: General Discussion

[Benjsh]

I’m mostly glad the park has done this because the prospect of performing dolphins in modern society isn’t really acceptable anymore. However it’s a shame they will continue to perform (albeit in other places).

Zoos can and must continue to exist. However this must be in the scope being towards education and preservation, as in a David Attenborough context.

Can happily say I didn’t see a dolphin show once on my two day visit to the park in 2019. The space would be better suited as a theatre to (non animal) performing shows.

Absolutely. Having Zoos might be the only way we keep some species alive. For example I think we've lost 50% of big cats in the wild over the last 30 to 40 years. Won't be long till we have lost them all the way they are being hunted and often poisoned by truly dreadful human beings.

I don't mind the large zoos which have ample spaces for their animals where they are well looked after. Not so much a fan of smaller inner City 'zoos' that have animals in cages and enclosures far too small for them.

 

[RoyJess]

I have nothing against performing animals if done properly and their welfare is taken in consideration. I used to do shows with animals. There enclosures at home were the largest that I could fit. I always have more than one animal of each breed to keep each other company. I never took them all out. But what I did notice, the animals that I actually took out and about with me, were healthier and live longer than those that I did not take out. The ones that I took out actually enjoyed coming out, they enjoyed the change of scenery, they enjoyed the social interaction they got from other people, and they were a lot healthier as a result of it.

I have parrots here and I train my Macaw, not for fun, not for entertainment, but this is done for enrichment for my parrot. She loves it, she is never forced to do anything, I always use positive reinforcement. I never use reprimands to train her. Our parrots are only in their enclosure over night or when we are out for the day (usually once a week before covid). Other than that, they have the freedom of our home.

Training animals can also be useful, it allows you to examine them for medical reason as well as apply medical treatment, toe nail trimmed etc...

My local Zoo's do animal displays, whether is is a bird or prey show or the sea lions, they are trained to do the things that you would naturally see them do in the wild.

I think people still see those images from the past where animals are force into doing tricks by reprimands, un suitable confined living environments. A reputable animal company that train animals would have moved on from those days.

How many of you have dogs here, teach them to sit, heal, give a paw, fetch a ball? Is it cruel? No the dog enjoy it. Dogs are not the only animals that enjoy being trained.

I do believe that in a perfect world that all animals should be free, living in the wild. But unfortunately, we do not live in a perfect world. Zoo do a great job in keeping animals, supplying enrichment.

 

[pluk]

I have nothing against performing animals if done properly and their welfare is taken in consideration. I used to do shows with animals. There enclosures at home were the largest that I could fit. I always have more than one animal of each breed to keep each other company. I never took them all out. But what I did notice, the animals that I actually took out and about with me, were healthier and live longer than those that I did not take out. The ones that I took out actually enjoyed coming out, they enjoyed the change of scenery, they enjoyed the social interaction they got from other people, and they were a lot healthier as a result of it.

I have parrots here and I train my Macaw, not for fun, not for entertainment, but this is done for enrichment for my parrot. She loves it, she is never forced to do anything, I always use positive reinforcement. I never use reprimands to train her. Our parrots are only in their enclosure over night or when we are out for the day (usually once a week before covid). Other than that, they have the freedom of our home.

Training animals can also be useful, it allows you to examine them for medical reason as well as apply medical treatment, toe nail trimmed etc...

My local Zoo's do animal displays, whether is is a bird or prey show or the sea lions, they are trained to do the things that you would naturally see them do in the wild.

I think people still see those images from the past where animals are force into doing tricks by reprimands, un suitable confined living environments. A reputable animal company that train animals would have moved on from those days.

How many of you have dogs here, teach them to sit, heal, give a paw, fetch a ball? Is it cruel? No the dog enjoy it. Dogs are not the only animals that enjoy being trained.

I do believe that in a perfect world that all animals should be free, living in the wild. But unfortunately, we do not live in a perfect world. Zoo do a great job in keeping animals, supplying enrichment.

A like is not enough. It needs to be highlighted that this post is excellent.

 

[Benjsh]

I have nothing against performing animals if done properly and their welfare is taken in consideration. I used to do shows with animals. There enclosures at home were the largest that I could fit. I always have more than one animal of each breed to keep each other company. I never took them all out. But what I did notice, the animals that I actually took out and about with me, were healthier and live longer than those that I did not take out. The ones that I took out actually enjoyed coming out, they enjoyed the change of scenery, they enjoyed the social interaction they got from other people, and they were a lot healthier as a result of it.

I have parrots here and I train my Macaw, not for fun, not for entertainment, but this is done for enrichment for my parrot. She loves it, she is never forced to do anything, I always use positive reinforcement. I never use reprimands to train her. Our parrots are only in their enclosure over night or when we are out for the day (usually once a week before covid). Other than that, they have the freedom of our home.

Training animals can also be useful, it allows you to examine them for medical reason as well as apply medical treatment, toe nail trimmed etc...

My local Zoo's do animal displays, whether is is a bird or prey show or the sea lions, they are trained to do the things that you would naturally see them do in the wild.

I think people still see those images from the past where animals are force into doing tricks by reprimands, un suitable confined living environments. A reputable animal company that train animals would have moved on from those days.

How many of you have dogs here, teach them to sit, heal, give a paw, fetch a ball? Is it cruel? No the dog enjoy it. Dogs are not the only animals that enjoy being trained.

I do believe that in a perfect world that all animals should be free, living in the wild. But unfortunately, we do not live in a perfect world. Zoo do a great job in keeping animals, supplying enrichment.

I actually think you make a convincing argument and I will concede that it probably depends on the animal. As you say you've got experience with birds and I think that's slightly different to what the original point that we were making. Birds in shows I have seen haven't really done anything that's equates to behaviour they don't do themselves anyway so they aren't the best example of what the OP was meaning.

For example making a bird fly from one high perch to another one which you often see in bird shows is not a lot different to their normal behaviour. However making Sea Lions do comedy acts and making Whales and Dolphins do what they make them do isn't the same thing.

 

[RoyJess]

I actually think you make a convincing argument and I will concede that it probably depends on the animal.

No, it does not depend on the animal, it depends on who is training them and what ethics that they have.

For example making a bird fly from one high perch to another one which you often see in bird shows is not a lot different to their normal behaviour. However making Sea Lions do comedy acts and making Whales and Dolphins do what they make them do isn't the same thing.

The last whale I've seen performing in captivity was at Windsor Safari park and that was many years ago. I've seen Dolphin acts and they consist of Dolphins leaping out of water and doing summersaults. Last time I seen Dolphins in the wild (when I used to work on the cruise ships) they did just that, they leap out of water and do summersaults.

Don't forget that Dolphins are very intelligent animals that need stimulation, they are closely related to dogs.

Both my local Zoo's have animal displays including sealions, birds as well as mammals. None of their animals are trained to do tricks. Most of their animals including the giraffes, elephants, big cats, rhinos are all target trained (ball on a stick) to respond to positive reinforcement (clicker, bell, whistle sound) followed by a reward (treat/food). They do this in addition to what I mentioned in my last post, to bring the animals in, move them to another section of the enclosure, weigh them etc... Sealions are also trained to fetch object from the bottom of the pool. Say for instant, a member of public drops their phone into the water, the sealion can safety retrieve it, other wise if they weren't trained to do this, they might eat it which would be harmful to the sealion.

The public displays are not there to entertain the crowed, but are there to demonstrate what goes on behind the scenes with regards to their day to day training, as well as to educate the public of their natural behaviours.

If you do find that what they do is funny, it not because they are trained to be funny, but us humans find that what would be considered their natural behaviour, amusing. At one of our local Zoo, a red legged seriema is given a rubber snake, the seriema would pick up the rubber snake and whack it onto the floor. As funny as this looks, with the audience laughing, this is a natural behaviour of the bird.

Sealions are funny animals to watch naturally. Watching a sealion talk into a microphone may not appear natural (BTW our local Zoo's won't demonstrate anything like this or do anything that humanise the animals) by which is achieved by smearing food onto the prop microphone and all the sealion is doing is licking off the food with a voice over giving it the impression that the sealion is talking. Licking food of any object is a natural behaviour.

Like I said in my previous post, nowadays most reputable animal trainer will have moved on with their ethics and will only demonstrate natural behaviour or anything that would be a benefit to the animal as oppose to entertaining a crowd.

 

[Benjsh]

No, it does not depend on the animal, it depends on who is training them and what ethics that they have.



The last whale I've seen performing in captivity was at Windsor Safari park and that was many years ago. I've seen Dolphin acts and they consist of Dolphins leaping out of water and doing summersaults. Last time I seen Dolphins in the wild (when I used to work on the cruise ships) they did just that, they leap out of water and do summersaults.

Don't forget that Dolphins are very intelligent animals that need stimulation, they are closely related to dogs.

Both my local Zoo's have animal displays including sealions, birds as well as mammals. None of their animals are trained to do tricks. Most of their animals including the giraffes, elephants, big cats, rhinos are all target trained (ball on a stick) to respond to positive reinforcement (clicker, bell, whistle sound) followed by a reward (treat/food). They do this in addition to what I mentioned in my last post, to bring the animals in, move them to another section of the enclosure, weigh them etc... Sealions are also trained to fetch object from the bottom of the pool. Say for instant, a member of public drops their phone into the water, the sealion can safety retrieve it, other wise if they weren't trained to do this, they might eat it which would be harmful to the sealion.

The public displays are not there to entertain the crowed, but are there to demonstrate what goes on behind the scenes with regards to their day to day training, as well as to educate the public of their natural behaviours.

If you do find that what they do is funny, it not because they are trained to be funny, but us humans find that what would be considered their natural behaviour, amusing. At one of our local Zoo, a red legged seriema is given a rubber snake, the seriema would pick up the rubber snake and whack it onto the floor. As funny as this looks, with the audience laughing, this is a natural behaviour of the bird.

Sealions are funny animals to watch naturally. Watching a sealion talk into a microphone may not appear natural (BTW our local Zoo's won't demonstrate anything like this or do anything that humanise the animals) by which is achieved by smearing food onto the prop microphone and all the sealion is doing is licking off the food with a voice over giving it the impression that the sealion is talking. Licking food of any object is a natural behaviour.

Like I said in my previous post, nowadays most reputable animal trainer will have moved on with their ethics and will only demonstrate natural behaviour or anything that would be a benefit to the animal as oppose to entertaining a crowd.

I don't agree with a lot of your points but admire your passion and accept your opinion.

Animals aren't on this planet as a means to entertain us. They are part of the natural world just like we are. They are not humans. They don't get paid to entertain. They have no choice.

 

[Benjsh]

And it's not long ago I have seen Sea lion act doing Elvis impressions. Don't remember seeing that on blue planet with David Attenborough

 

[Tim]

I'm glad we are moving away from seeing performing animals as Circus or Theme Park attractions. In these circumstances it's far too easy for the demands of a business to be put ahead of animal welfare.

However I do agree with RoyJess that there are welfare benefits to animals that are trained responsibly.

In general I draw the line at places that actively advertise performing animals. If the animal exists for the sake of the show that's a problem. But if the show exists as an extra (like the stripped down performances seen at a lot of zoos) I'm ok with that.

So for me the removal of one more Theme Park show is simply a good thing.

 

[RoyJess]

And it's not long ago I have seen Sea lion act doing Elvis impressions.

Where did you see this Sealion act?

 

[Benjsh]

Where did you see this Sealion act?

Spain.

And it's not that long ago they were doing Sea Lion comedy shows at Sea World either, the biggest park of its type in the world. Thankfully they have stopped them in the 00's.

And also the reason I don't like Dolphin shows is those animals don't belong in tanks rather than the performing aspect. Dolphins are majestic creatures that swim incredibly fast and need to be in the Ocean where they belong.

 

[RoyJess]

Spain.

So you are against performing animals, but recently you were quiet happy to go and sit in an audience to watch a sealion show knowing full well that they will have performing animals?

And also the reason I don't like Dolphin shows is those animals don't belong in tanks rather than the performing aspect. Dolphins are majestic creatures that swim incredibly fast and need to be in the Ocean where they belong.

I fully agree, but where animals are either bread in captivity or have been rescued for what ever reason, it is not always possible to release them back into the wild. Hunstanton Sealife seal sanctuary take in injured seals, most of them are
nursed back to health and released back into the wild. But unfortunately, not every single seal brought in are able to be released back into the wild and are kept in captivity, as releasing them will mean certain death for the animal

 

[D4n]

Slightly off-topic but some of the animal use in acts at Europa (specifically thinking of the use of horses in the Spain show) took me by surprise as being quite clearly unnatural behaviour and, frankly, quite dangerous for the animals.

I think these things are more common in mainland Europe, sadly. Use of horses for sport and entertainment seems to get a free pass from most people, too.

I certainly wouldn't consider seeing that particular show again and would much prefer Europa replaced it with something entirely actor-led. I feel the same way in the case of Asterix removing this show (although I never saw it).

Bird shows can be very different, the Birds of Prey show at Warwick Castle is excellent and is focused on showcasing the natural behaviour of the birds.

 

[AT86]

I fully agree, but where animals are either bread in captivity or have been rescued for what ever reason, it is not always possible to release them back into the wild. Hunstanton Sealife seal sanctuary take in injured seals, most of them are
nursed back to health and released back into the wild. But unfortunately, not every single seal brought in are able to be released back into the wild and are kept in captivity, as releasing them will mean certain death for the animal

But there is a difference between this, and putting those animals in a theatre to perform a show. That’s the red line for me.

Thinking about it, the Sealion show at Chessington appears to go against the messaging Merlin send out around these shows, specifically the recent documentary about the whales in China.

 

[Benjsh]

So you are against performing animals, but recently you were quiet happy to go and sit in an audience to watch a sealion show knowing full well that they will have performing animals?



I fully agree, but where animals are either bread in captivity or have been rescued for what ever reason, it is not always possible to release them back into the wild. Hunstanton Sealife seal sanctuary take in injured seals, most of them are
nursed back to health and released back into the wild. But unfortunately, not every single seal brought in are able to be released back into the wild and are kept in captivity, as releasing them will mean certain death for the animal

No I didn't watch the show as I hate that kind of thing but friends of ours did.

 

[RoyJess]

But there is a difference between this, and putting those animals in a theatre to perform a show. That’s the red line for me.

Thinking about it, the Sealion show at Chessington appears to go against the messaging Merlin send out around these shows, specifically the recent documentary about the whales in China.

You will find that the ethics in the Sealion show at Chessington are in keeping with training the animals for the purpose of what I've already outlined in my previous post and are for the benefits of the animals and not for the entertainment of the audience. They are not trained to do tricks

No I didn't watch the show as I hate that kind of thing but friends of ours did.

This

And it's not long ago I have seen Sea lion act doing Elvis impressions. Don't remember seeing that on blue planet with David Attenborough

 

[MattyH]

A lot of what I know about Sealions was taught via the Sealion show at Pleasurewood Hills.

 

[Rob]

So, ermmm, Parc Asterix anyone? Back on topic please!

 

[AstroDan]

Sorry, but Astérix and Obélix are just the best. I love how at that park, I had wild boar for lunch just like Obélix would and washed it down with a half litre jug of wine for €6.90. The rides have been improving in recent years, too.

 

[Danny]

Sorry, but Astérix and Obélix are just the best. I love how at that park, I had wild boar for lunch just like Obélix would and washed it down with a half litre jug of wine for €6.90. The rides have been improving in recent years, too.

Did that include a yoghurt though?

 

[AstroDan]

Did that include a yoghurt though?

No yaourt grec required!