UK Politics General Discussion

[Benzin]

From: https://x.com/richardgaisford/status/1820334962798715348


Arson and attempted murder charges abound?

Abhorrent behaviour that has been pushed from many over the years. Farage still blathering about "2 tier" policing and Tommy 10 Names currently holed up in Cyprus as a fugitive.

 

[Matt.GC]

This very idea that we should be "listening to their concerns"! I thought we were a country that didn't negotiate with terrorists or respond to political violence?

Farage and his mates, and anyone else who claims that this is "politicians fault" in an attempt to excuse violent mobs with nazi tattoos rioting, should think very clearly about what they are peddling.

I couldn't care less what excuses a mob of racist hooligans have for going on violent rampages. Would they have wanted to have a debate with Just Stop Oil protesters glueing themselves to motorways? Maybe when the next Islamist terror attack occurs they'd advocate sitting down with them afterwards and having a chin wag over a cup of tea?

You'll never appease these people. They're mostly just vile racist hooligans who have chosen to subscribe to an ideology and choosing to commit crimes. No talks. No debate. No appeasement. That comes later. Right now there's an organised mob of criminals and hate preachers who need dealing with.

 

[Slugjc]

I was speaking to a friend if mine last week, who's employer and union had sent a joint email out about the disturbances, then forecasted , for the weekend. More or less told them to, lock themselves away if needs be and let the police deal with the public. Look after number 1 and not get into harms way. Also warned them to not removing stickers and duck tape stuck to buildings as reports of razor blades being attached to them had been made.

The media will preach this being about the 3 girls killed in Southport. You have to wonder if this was pre planned. New government. Rwanda cancelled. I would argue the riots in harehills a few ago, sparked something in them. It certainly did on our local Facebook group.

It's also no coincidence that the posts about pensioners freezing to death whilst the immigrants swan around 5 star hotels posts sprang up last week. Some called for a revolution, "we want our county back."

They can bloody have it. Get me out of here.

 

[GaryH]

I’m not on about talking directly at those going out rioting, but, there are a lot of people in the country, who are not far right, concerned about immigration levels and the impact it is having on the infrastructure of the country.

Those out causing trouble are just using on this insecurity as a reason to go out and cause trouble because they feel they have a lot of support behind them.

Starmer needs to make it a non issue by actually acknowledging it and listening to people; providing a real solution to the problem.

If he doesn’t do this, the trouble will continue maybe not this week, but it will continue to bubble under the surface as it has been for the last few years until it rears its ugly head again. Only bigger.

Edit: just to add, we have to remember it’s not just England seeing the rise of the far right but many European countries are seeing the same worrying trend.

 

[Benzin]

The ones in Harehills I do wonder if they affected Leeds not doing much (beyond there being a load more anti-fascist and/or pro-Palestine people also in the area) on the Saturday compared to other cities. That and Leeds United were playing too.

Harehills after all was predominantly minority groups kicking up against the policing and social services getting involved. Given it was only a few days after the Manchester Airport police incident I'd wager that many were feeling on edge. Much like London/Croydon in 2012. Yet any 'valid' reasons (though many cite this was because of the Southport stabbing incident, they don't mention that this came from distinct misinformation of the arrested person) get thrown out when people start wanton destruction and endangering lives in such a manner.

No matter the colour or creed some just want an excuse to partake in destruction.

 

[jon81uk]

I’m not on about talking directly at those going out rioting, but, there are a lot of people in the country, who are not far right, concerned about immigration levels and the impact it is having on the infrastructure of the country.

Except the immigration levels are not having an impact on the infrastructure of the country. Austerity and poor funding under Conservative governments caused it.

Immigrants are less likely to be on benefits compared to UK-born people and contribute more in taxes than they take out.

Evidence that proves the true effect of immigration on the UK

Thorough research led by Professor Christian Dustmann has guided parliament and public debate over immigration, rebutting poorly substantiated claims of negative financial costs of migration to the UK

www.ucl.ac.uk

Later work by CReAM calculated that the net fiscal contribution of immigrants from the post-2004 EU accession states (such as Poland) arriving between 2000 and 2011 was £5 billion, while recent immigrants from the rest of the EU contributed £15 billion. Non-EU immigrants also boosted the public purse by £5 billion overall. In contrast, UK natives’ contribution was negative, costing almost £617 billion.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/impacts-migration-local-public-services/ https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-immigration-and-pressure-nhs/ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-31822307 (these reports are from 2015-16 but still relevant)

But in general we need migrants as they generally get jobs and contribute taxes.

 

[Dave]

I’m not on about talking directly at those going out rioting, but, there are a lot of people in the country, who are not far right, concerned about immigration levels and the impact it is having on the infrastructure of the country.

Those out causing trouble are just using on this insecurity as a reason to go out and cause trouble because they feel they have a lot of support behind them.

Starmer needs to make it a non issue by actually acknowledging it and listening to people; providing a real solution to the problem.

If he doesn’t do this, the trouble will continue maybe not this week, but it will continue to bubble under the surface as it has been for the last few years until it rears its ugly head again. Only bigger.

Edit: just to add, we have to remember it’s not just England seeing the rise of the far right but many European countries are seeing the same worrying trend.

Humans migrate, they have done since the dawn of the species. The solution is to make the places they are running from economically and politically stable and reduce the impact of global warming.

Also immigration is not actually that high on many people agenda, every poll or survey proves this, it’s just amplified by a bunch of political grifters.

Why should the PM be dictated to by the minority?

 

[GaryH]

Humans migrate, they have done since the dawn of the species.

Why should the PM be dictated to by the minority?

I don’t disagree. But there has to be a limit on how many people a country with limited resources can accommodate.

And I think it’s actually my not a minority who feel this way. Just a minority who go out and act like idiots as we saw over the weekend.

In a survey over half of Britains questioned felt immigration was too high and wanted it reduced. But, a similar amount recognised immigration was good for the country. This is the key Starmer and others are missing - British people are not against immigration, they just want the numbers coming in reduced. But anyone who says that in public is branded racist.

UK Public Opinion toward Immigration: Overall Attitudes and Level of Concern - Migration Observatory

This briefing provides an overview of attitudes toward immigration in Britain.

migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk

https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/immigration-tracker-march-2024

 

[Dave]

I don’t disagree. But there has to be a limit on how many people a country with limited resources can accommodate.

And I think it’s actually my not a minority who feel this way. Just a minority who go out and act like idiots as we saw over the weekend.

In a survey over half of Britains questioned felt immigration was too high and wanted it reduced. But, a similar amount recognised immigration was good for the country. This is the key Starmer and others are missing - British people are not against immigration, they just want the numbers coming in reduced. But anyone who says that in public is branded racist.

UK Public Opinion toward Immigration: Overall Attitudes and Level of Concern - Migration Observatory

This briefing provides an overview of attitudes toward immigration in Britain.

migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk

https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/immigration-tracker-march-2024

Yes but very few said it was an important issue to them. I don’t think many people believe in uncontrolled immigration but not a lot of people rate the issue as a top 10 problem for the country (as indicated in your link from Ipsos).

Plenty of people say that they want immigration reduced and are not branded a racist (Starmer has said it). This idea that people are labelled racist if they want to reduce immigration is just not true. If your arguments are economic then fine people might disagree but no one labels those people racist, if your issue is “we want fewer none white people” then you are racist.

The people who want immigration reduced however, always seem to fail to identify who is going to do the jobs we need doing instead of immigrants but there you go. Ironically I suppose a lot of the people rioting were economically inactive and sadly those that were economically active are about to become economically inactive so they are exacerbating the problem, got to love irony.

 

[Jb85]

I’m a firm believer immigration levels, or the excess of immigration is having a knock on affect to the NHS and support services.

I don’t believe it’s affecting benefits though. We have millions of British born citizens doing absolutely nothing…..

Immigration is fine if it’s controlled.
An Australian style system would work well.

Equally, I think we (and other European countries) should do what we can to help those in war torn areas.

Edit::- Seems it’s kicking off in Birmingham.

UK riots latest: Crowds and police clash in Plymouth as rival groups face off; 'tense' situation in Birmingham

Focus is on Plymouth this evening where riot police are trying to keep the peace between two rival protest groups. In the week since the Southport stabbings, which have fuelled far-right and anti-immigrant riots across the UK, almost 400 people have been arrested.

news.sky.com

Scary times - it’s been coming for years though.

 

[jon81uk]

I’m a firm believer immigration levels, or the excess of immigration is having a knock on affect to the NHS and support services.

Generally migrants are beneficial to the NHS, as many of the work for it. Also most migrants are young and economically active therefore paying taxes. Health tourism is not significant.

Is immigration harming the NHS?

The NHS workforce come from overseas as well as the UK. Is that a bad thing?

www.nhsconfed.org

Overall it’s still the combination of Tory underfunding and too many pensioners with a lack of community care that are bigger issues.
https://www.ageuk.org.uk/latest-pre...me-we-need-to-act-now-to-fix-it-warns-age-uk/

 

[Jb85]

Generally migrants are beneficial to the NHS, as many of the work for it. Also most migrants are young and economically active therefore paying taxes. Health tourism is not significant.

Is immigration harming the NHS?

The NHS workforce come from overseas as well as the UK. Is that a bad thing?

www.nhsconfed.org

Overall it’s still the combination of Tory underfunding and too many pensioners with a lack of community care that are bigger issues.
https://www.ageuk.org.uk/latest-pre...me-we-need-to-act-now-to-fix-it-warns-age-uk/

You say many work for it - yes they do. But the NHS cannot cope with the sheer volume of people, elderly, immigrants, just the general population as a whole.

Not saying your wrong though. I meant on the angle that immigration doesn’t help an already perilous situation.

 

[Tom]

The Conservative Party has presided over huge population increase of 5 million (including births, but exacerbated by large increases in net migration) over 14 years and invested in effectively zero extra infrastructure.

Fascists need little excuse to be violent, but the problem could have bene predicted months/years ago. We require a 5-10k-place super prison and/or forced labour camps building with urgency as a partial deterrent to these idiots. But what we also need is a serious decision on whether to slash population growth, or commence huge state intervention and borrowing to ramp up our infrastructure.

Labour needs to be firm and decisive on both fascism and population management. If it is limp and indecisive, it will be eradicated by populism in 5 years or less. There is no better opportunity this far out from an election, or with such a large majority.

 

[Slugjc]

The vast majority is know immigration is a good thing. It's fills gaps in employment. Boost the economy and all the good points mentioned above.

We've stopped have a conversation about immigration. It's just two sides shouting at one another. I can see it in this thread.

Over the weekend I've seen thugs outside a mosque in Liverpool shouting go home. A mosque that has been there since the 1890s. With a community that's been around alot longer than they have and are grieving as much as you are. Where would you like them to go? I've seen a woman, stand in front of a fire engine shout "save our children." Stopping it getting to a library that's buring, In one of the poorest areas of the country. How about we have conversation, without burning down a vital part of the community that will help your children. What about the children scared by your, and yours ilks actions? If you are really upset about the small boats. Does looting vapes and mobile phones in anyway going to stop them?

Then we get to attacking a hotel. Torturing those inside and the staff, who are just normal working people, like you, getting paid to do a job, to provide for themselves and family and paying tax. Attacking those who have braved the north sea on a dingy to get to somewhere, where they hope to be safe. Have we ever asked why are would you do that?

Attacking a police force because they "haven't done anything." Whilst arresting the scruff who killed the 3 kids in the first place, whilst risking their own lives.

We are f@cked. A lad from Cardiff, with Rwandan parents kills 3 kids so now we have to witness skin heads trashing the place to protect the children. When white drug dealers shoot a kid. Nothing. A white nurse kills a few children. Nothing. A Welsh news presenter pleads guilty to possession of child porn. Nothing. Beginning to see a pattern that it's not the 3.kids in Southport your upset about.

 

[Tom]

You are right, we need a serious conversation about recession and population decline possibly being a price worth paying for long-term sustainable levels of living standards. Alternatively, the discussion needs to include rapid and massive borrowing to reset our infrastructure to try and catch up for the decades of mass migration which has left infrastructure and services gasping for breath - combined with under investment of course. But the latter of course requires taxes and that is toxified at every election.

We are in managed decline, as is the West general, but people need honesty about the real choices - all of which are painful.

Japan's population is in reverse. Its response isn't to open the floodgates of net migration to make up a pathetic measure of national GDP growth by 1-2% at the expense of the erosion of its living standards, wages, and available public services. All New Labour and the Conservative Party has been bothered about is national GDP and tax take. No other measure of growth or living standards, and ignoring regression where it occurs.

 

[SirDossa]

I would go as far as saying that Starmer’s response to recent events is the epitome of being “dictated to by the minority”. This government, and indeed the ones that came before it have fostered a culture where wronged communities who abide by the law are ignored, and those who riot are rewarded.

Where was the response to the recent riots in Leeds? Or the storming of the police station in Rochdale? Or indeed any violence deemed to be committed by the “left”. Going back to the recent unsavoury scenes in Leeds, I believe the police literally ran away and the Home Secretary’s response was watered down incase she offended anyone. If some ever doubted that two tier policing was a thing in this country, it’s now clear as day for all to see. In the recent days, I’ve seen footage of Police telling young Muslim men to go and leave their weapons at the mosque. I’ve also seen some harrowing incidents committed by similar groups, but Starmer seems intent on selectively talking about said public unrest, and refuses to condemn ALL who indulge in mindless acts of violence.

The people see the different police treatment and they feel victimised and ignored. They feel helpless that children are being massacred in their town, and helpless that unknown undocumented (and potentially dangerous) foreign men are given free food, housing and healthcare when so many of them struggle to work & feed their kids.

It’s not just the government and the MSM that are dictated to by the minority. You only need to take a close look at the appalling Rotherham grooming gangs saga to see that the abuse went on for years and years as a result of the authorities being scared of being labelled racist if they tackled it.

To me, mass (illegal) immigration was the number one issue in the run up to the recent election. The majority of people I know are also of the same opinion. It’s also glaringly obvious how much of an issue it is across Europe as recent events in France, Hungary and Italy show, and if Trump gets back in to the White House, I believe that his stance on Immigration will have played a key part in him doing so. To put it simply, such widespread support for these “right-wing” parties isn’t the result of millions of downright fascist racists ticking a box in the hope that Immigrants will be eradicated. In the vast majority of instances, it is normal hardworking people, who are fearful of what their (and their Children’s) futures, and nations will look like unless some control is applied to a system that has simply become out of control.

“Stopping the boats” become a key talking point of the general election, and rightfully so for a number of humanitarian and ethical reasons, as well as ultimately the prevention of criminal activity. Let’s not kid ourselves..the vast majority of people on these boats are young men who are often not fleeing countries currently actively engaged in war, and are also not waltzing in to roles as Doctors, Teachers, Paramedic’s etc.

There was some discussion previously about cultures being displaced, and demographics changing. I appreciate that the impact of this is likely to not be felt by a large number of you, but I live in London, and it’s plain to see that some areas/neighbourhoods have changed to the point that they are practically unrecognisable. Spare a thought for the people who grew up in these areas only to witness it all change, without them having any say in it

Although lots of people who choose to come and live in Britain embrace Britain, and the hospitality and culture it offers, there are large numbers of people, and whole communities who keep themselves to themselves, and have no interest in assimilating in to British culture. You only need to take a trip down to Speakers Corner in Hyde Park to see some of the hatred and extremism that is spewed from people who outright despise British/western culture.

We are often led to believe that diversity is our strength, but when said diversity is impacting people’s lives and futures, then that is surely a problem. Elections increasingly seem to concern events in foreign countries, and not things currently happening here in the UK.

I’m well aware of the positive effects that a functional Immigration system offers, but illegal immigration is through the roof, with the numbers likely being far greater than what we are told by the powers that be.

I imagine this post will go down like a lead balloon on here. Please note that personally, I do not condone the recent riots one bit, and there’s no excuse to hurt police officers or innocent civilians, or to burn cars and buildings no matter what colour or religion you are.

 

[Tom]

I would go as far as saying that Starmer’s response to recent events is the epitome of being “dictated to by the minority”. This government, and indeed the ones that came before it have fostered a culture where wronged communities who abide by the law are ignored, and those who riot are rewarded.

Where was the response to the recent riots in Leeds? Or the storming of the police station in Rochdale? Or indeed any violence deemed to be committed by the “left”. Going back to the recent unsavoury scenes in Leeds, I believe the police literally ran away and the Home Secretary’s response was watered down incase she offended anyone. If some ever doubted that two tier policing was a thing in this country, it’s now clear as day for all to see. In the recent days, I’ve seen footage of Police telling young Muslim men to go and leave their weapons at the mosque. I’ve also seen some harrowing incidents committed by similar groups, but Starmer seems intent on selectively talking about said public unrest, and refuses to condemn ALL who indulge in mindless acts of violence.

The people see the different police treatment and they feel victimised and ignored. They feel helpless that children are being massacred in their town, and helpless that unknown undocumented (and potentially dangerous) foreign men are given free food, housing and healthcare when so many of them struggle to work & feed their kids.

It’s not just the government and the MSM that are dictated to by the minority. You only need to take a close look at the appalling Rotherham grooming gangs saga to see that the abuse went on for years and years as a result of the authorities being scared of being labelled racist if they tackled it.

To me, mass (illegal) immigration was the number one issue in the run up to the recent election. The majority of people I know are also of the same opinion. It’s also glaringly obvious how much of an issue it is across Europe as recent events in France, Hungary and Italy show, and if Trump gets back in to the White House, I believe that his stance on Immigration will have played a key part in him doing so. To put it simply, such widespread support for these “right-wing” parties isn’t the result of millions of downright fascist racists ticking a box in the hope that Immigrants will be eradicated. In the vast majority of instances, it is normal hardworking people, who are fearful of what their (and their Children’s) futures, and nations will look like unless some control is applied to a system that has simply become out of control.

“Stopping the boats” become a key talking point of the general election, and rightfully so for a number of humanitarian and ethical reasons, as well as ultimately the prevention of criminal activity. Let’s not kid ourselves..the vast majority of people on these boats are young men who are often not fleeing countries currently actively engaged in war, and are also not waltzing in to roles as Doctors, Teachers, Paramedic’s etc.

There was some discussion previously about cultures being displaced, and demographics changing. I appreciate that the impact of this is likely to not be felt by a large number of you, but I live in London, and it’s plain to see that some areas/neighbourhoods have changed to the point that they are practically unrecognisable. Spare a thought for the people who grew up in these areas only to witness it all change, without them having any say in it

Although lots of people who choose to come and live in Britain embrace Britain, and the hospitality and culture it offers, there are large numbers of people, and whole communities who keep themselves to themselves, and have no interest in assimilating in to British culture. You only need to take a trip down to Speakers Corner in Hyde Park to see some of the hatred and extremism that is spewed from people who outright despise British/western culture.

We are often led to believe that diversity is our strength, but when said diversity is impacting people’s lives and futures, then that is surely a problem. Elections increasingly seem to concern events in foreign countries, and not things currently happening here in the UK.

I’m well aware of the positive effects that a functional Immigration system offers, but illegal immigration is through the roof, with the numbers likely being far greater than what we are told by the powers that be.

I imagine this post will go down like a lead balloon on here. Please note that personally, I do not condone the recent riots one bit, and there’s no excuse to hurt police officers or innocent civilians, or to burn cars and buildings no matter what colour or religion you are.

Its confined to a narrower scope of people than my general economic narrative of migration numbers, but very articulately - and well - put.

 

[jon81uk]

I’m well aware of the positive effects that a functional Immigration system offers, but illegal immigration is through the roof, with the numbers likely being far greater than what we are told by the powers that be.

Well human trafficking and modern slavery is a whole other issue and I would say that’s more an employment issue than an immigration one.

 

[MaxPower]

One of the things which hasn't been spoken about much and is probably one of the more important issues is that we're seeing many more skilled workers leaving the country than ever before.

It's unsustainable to keep topping up the population with less skilled workers than those who are leaving and completely ignoring the underlying issues which are driving people away (Especially in vital services such as the NHS).

There are also many issues with the exploitation of low skilled migrants through the excessive use of zero hour contracts and in more severe cases, modern day slavery situations.

Again, issues that seem to get ignored by the media when talking about the subject.

 

[Slugjc]

There was some discussion previously about cultures being displaced, and demographics changing. I appreciate that the impact of this is likely to not be felt by a large number of you, but I live in London, and it’s plain to see that some areas/neighbourhoods have changed to the point that they are practically unrecognisable. Spare a thought for the people who grew up in these areas only to witness it all change, without them having any say in it

The change in London isn't just due to migration. It's due to the poorer communities being driven out by the high house prices and rentals.

Take Whitechapel. We are told in documentaries on the ripper, that it this powder keg of migrant's and poverty and the place is dirty, rat infested and full of disease. The ripper tour I did told us that even in the early 90s. It was still a run down area with a high crime rate. Low house prices etc. look at now. Houses going for the millions. Spittle fields market is high end.

You think it's just a London issue. Congratulations on catching up. You look at some of the old mill towns here up north. Those communities have been changing for hundreds of years now. Irish entering from Liverpool spreading out to find work. Muslim communities replacing the old communities driven away when the industries shutting down.

No one ever "has a say" on that.