UK Politics General Discussion

[shakey]

I really hope this isn’t in the autumn budget. This would affect loads of people young and old. The 25% discount should really be 50% if you live alone, but to lose it all together would be political suicide for Labour. Trouble is Starmer isn’t ruling it out


From: https://x.com/martinslewis/status/1834253834639511773?s=46

Well that would affect me if it goes ahead.

Think it would be a massive own goal for labour if it does happen.

 

[Quantum]

It's a big hike in Ctax for single people if this happens. They could choose to reform Ctax but that takes too much time and besides the government needs the money now to spend on climate projects abroad you'll never hear out.

 

[BarryZola]

Let's be honest, everyone's going to get a bit battered by this new and improved era of austerity one way or another. Pensioners, working people, single people, couples, kids or no kids, people with savings and investments etc etc. Everyone's gonna get it.

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

Council Tax needs a massive rethink and re-evaluation generally. As Martin Lewis pointed out in his post, the banding is still based on data from 1991. Over 50% of our council tax presently goes to the Police and Crime Commissioner's office and not to county, district or parish councils.

Councils are desperately underfunded and Labour committed to not increasing council tax, so they've got to play with something. I'm going to hold my breath and wait for the details to emerge, before panicking about rumours.

Let's be honest, everyone's going to get a bit battered by this new and improved era of austerity one way or another. Pensioners, working people, single people, couples, kids or no kids, people with savings and investments etc etc. Everyone's gonna get it.

And you know what? I'm ok with that, I think, as long as it genuinely is everyone getting hit with something and bearing a bit of the increased the load. That's what society is supposed to be about, after all, mucking in together for the improvement of everyone.

 

[rob666]

But you are forgetting that nice Mrs Thatcher told us there is no such thing as society.
Greed is good.
Protect the family.
Screw the rest, they are scroungers.

 

[Alsty]

Ahh yes the “let’s blame the last government they left us a £22bn black hole” excuse. So predictable. Yeah the Tories did a lot of things wrong, as have Labour and Lib Dem’s in the past (university fees) and no doubt this is going to be the Labour mantra going forwards for the next 4 years.

You've spoken before of two-tier policing. What we actually have in this country is two-tier media.

If Labour make any spending commitments they have to balance the books. That is why they have to make difficult decisions. They cannot just go out spending money on our infrastructure, as much as we'd all love it, because it's not sustainable and the media in this country would be all over them for doing so.

However you might like to contrast that with Liz Truss who made unfunded tax cuts and without any impact statement, yet the next day the media were all singing its praises. Two tier media.

 

[Matt.GC]

Thinking about this whole story, and the inevitable pain that lies ahead, got me thinking about an interview Ken Clark did recently.

Clark spoke about the politics of the situation, and has often had to accept that the treasury he handed over to Labour in 1997 was on a sound footing and the economy was booming, but that attacks on the outgoing government were part of the political game. Clark does realise however, that there are no parallels with 1997 at all (obviously). He's always been critical of George Osborne's approach to austerity in 2010, favouring Alistair Darlings slower turning down of the taps so that growth isn't compromised (and we now know that Osborne and Cameron, aided and abetted by the Lib Dems, killed off decent growth for a generation), coupled with reform. He compares the situation now more to 1979, where basic services no longer worked, there was civil unrest, the public finances were in a perilously state, we'd had years of unstable governance, very low productivity, and growth was sat in the toilet. We are once again the "sick man" of Europe/the western world.

Clark is an admirer of both Rachel Reeves and Jeremy Hunt, and has met both. Despite the public jostling, he doubts that if the 3 of them were in a room together, that they would disagree on anything regarding their assessment of the UK economy and the actions and reforms needed to fix it. The only disagreements would likely be on where the axe should fall for ideological reasons. Apparently Hunt put a great deal of effort into preparing the civil service at the treasury for the handover to Reeves before he stepped back from the national public spotlight to fight for his own seat. This Winter Fuel Payment policy was put to him by treasury officials a few times, but he always decided against (although whether he would have carried on resisting had they won the election, is anyone's guess, I would theorise that he wouldn't). Reeves has accepted it and ran with it.

I think accepting that the country needs drastic change and widespread reform is where the problem lies. The public were generally more accepting of some form of austere measures in 2010 (some, not all). But I don't think they're quite there yet now that we've been stung. I think the public mood is that the incompetence of the last government is completely unquestionable and they needed to go, but after an entire generation of things getting worse and worse, there's a yearning for some positivity.

I think Labour have handled the PR badly so far, I think this is why they are getting as many attacks on the left flank as the right. Attacks for not opening the cheque book on the left, attacks for upcoming tax rises on the right. Both flanks will be scouring the country to find a pensioner without their heating on this winter, and use them as an example to attack the government. They've failed to convince the country of the reality of the road ahead somehow, despite the doom and gloom rhetoric which clearly isn't resonating with people.

Thatcher did the same, of course, being extremely unpopular right up to the sinking of the Belgrano. There was absolutely nothing positive to say about life in the UK as her first term entered its latter stages. The Tories managed to stay in power for 18 years and changed the country, for better or worse, forever (let it be known, I'm not showering praise on that wicked woman's policies by the way). Unless Starmer can find some Argentinians to kill with what's left of the British armed forces, he'll have to think very carefully about how he sells his governments policies for the next 5 years, and how he wakes unconvinced voters up to the reality of the choices that now need to be made, whilst still managing to instill hope.

This isn't even too late for Winter Fuel (although the clock is ticking). So far they've doubled down on the financial inheritance alone, but that's just allowed opponents of the policy to double down on the intricacies and implications of the policy, and giving oxygen to the "but why me?" argument, since is was announced as a stand-alone policy, right off the back of OFGEM raising the energy price cap. They've done a poor job of highlighting just how much the triple lock has raised the state pension this winter compared to last, how the pensioner age group is the only age group as a collective to consistently be better off that it was 14 years ago, and how pensioners receiving pension credit will still actually get it.

I'd like to see more selling of this policy that doesn't just focus on "the mess that we inherited". By constantly shirking responsibility for the policy rather than owning and defending it, they're allowing the media to imply that even they think they're doing bad guy stuff by doing this. A large scale national advertising campaign, aimed at both pensioners themselves, their neighbours, and their loved ones urging Pension Credit applications wouldn't go amiss either.

 

[Matt N]

I’m aware that things are not economically brilliant right now and it would be remiss to pretend that they are, but I must admit that I’m getting a bit worn down by Starmer and Labour’s seemingly constant utterly negative rhetoric.

I get that hard choices need to be made, and I’m glad that Starmer and Reeves are levelling with the public about those hard choices rather than kicking them into the long grass. I also agree with some of the choices made; for example, I agree that means testing the winter fuel payment was necessary, even if I do not necessarily fully agree with the way it’s been implemented.

With that being said, I am a bit disillusioned with the Labour government seemingly lacking any kind of positive vision. Everything that comes out of Starmer’s mouth seems to be “doom, doom, doom”, and it feels like the new government are saying absolutely nothing positive and nothing that gives any kind of hope for the future. It’s all Tory bashing, moaning about the “dreadful inheritance” they were left and talking about “hard times” and “difficult choices”. It’s utterly demoralising, and does not give you much optimism for a better future.

I get that things are not at their most rosy right now, but is it really too much to ask to hope for a bit of positivity and some semblance of a hopeful vision for the future from the Labour government?

 

[rob666]

Unfortunately Matt, everything at the moment really is doom, doom, doom...whichever way you look at it.
We have generated an enormous debt through the covid epidemic, and higher interest rates mean we get further in debt by the day...but it doesn't get mentioned much.
We have an ageing population, supported by the crippled nhs, that is only getting older... with fewer young people (and immigrant carers/health workers) to look after them, and fewer people paying into the tax system overall to cover all those pensions and benefits.
Then you can add on a real world climate crisis on top of a stagnant, crippled economy, and a mass public sector pay round under "free cash Labour" to fund on top.
Add on prisons, winter fuel cobblers and a right wing press.
Then there is Putin, China, and M pox...

All this is well known, but nobody screams it too loud in case it shatters the "faith in the economy" we are all meant to believe in...
Hell in a handcart, get me on Hyperia quick before the world economy crashes in despair.

 

[Matt N]

I’m not blind to the severe challenges the country faces. But it would be nice if Starmer and Labour were able to say “yes, there are challenges, but here’s how we’re going to fix them and build a better future” and paint some sort of positive vision for the country and instil hope for the future.

As it stands, it seems like they’re only moaning about the challenges and the difficult choices and bashing the Tories without providing any kind of potential positive vision or any kind of light at the end of the tunnel. It feels very cynical and pessimistic, and after living through 14 years of austerity, Brexit, COVID, Ukraine, the cost of living crisis and such, I’d argue that the country could really use the boost of some kind of light at the end of the tunnel being discussed and worked towards rather than just constant doom and gloom. I’m not blind to the fact that there are serious challenges to overcome and tough decisions to make, but can’t we have some hope that things might get better and a positive vision for future Britain for the country to aspire towards and look forward to?

It feels like for all my life, we’ve only ever had negative politics. I can’t really remember a Britain before austerity, cuts and “hard choices”; I was only 7 when Cameron’s coalition government was elected and austerity began, and since then, it’s just felt like constant doom and gloom, austerity, cuts and “difficult choices” with little positivity. It’s utterly demoralising and does not give you much hope for the future, and it sometimes frankly makes me wonder; what is the point of living if there’s nothing good to look forward to or no positive vision to aspire towards? All the negativity is incredibly demoralising and does nothing to make me excited for my impending adult future; it just makes me anxious and stressed. I get the need to be honest with the electorate, but is it really too much to ask to hope for some kind of positive vision, ambition to make things better, or light at the end of the tunnel to work towards? I really hoped Starmer would be different, but thus far, it almost seems like he’s just the same as the others in that regard.

 

[Plastic Person]

Starmer isn't that different to the others, that's why it feels the same. As well as eroding the country's public services and infrastructure, the Tories impact on the national spirit will take decades to recover from, if it ever does. As you highlight yourself, someone of your age literally cannot remember a time of optimism, or even a coherent vision for the future. It is the status quo.

The only thing that will radically alter the course of the country is the redistribution of the UK's significant wealth, and the last attempt at something even vaguely approaching that was rejected by the public and likely always will be, as long as the media remains guided by Murdoch and co. As is often expressed in here, Great Britain is apparently a 'centrist' country, and this is what centrism looks and feels like in 2024. I don't have much in the way of good news for you. Except that I do personally feel we'll get our own Universal Studios at some point.

 

[rob666]

...The only thing that will radically alter the course of the country is the redistribution of the UK's significant wealth...

Absolutely.

And the last time we had national optimism and rode a wave was supposedly "Cool Britannia", Blair style.
The one bloke who could have made inroads into Thatcher's lurch to the right, but refused to do so, as it wasn't guaranteed to get him reelected.

 

[Matt.GC]

From a personal point of view, I actually like all this kind of stuff. After years of the Tories bouncing around telling us we could have our cake and eat it, and then failing to come up with the goods when reality set in, with Blair and Brown doing the same thing before them, I find the honesty and the wake up call quite refreshing. I've never liked happy clappy 'yay, everyone's a winner' messaging in all aspects of my life. It's probably a key attribute to why I am such a naturally suspicious and untrusting person who usually expects the worst. It's a defence mechanic from years being told that "everything will be ok".

If anything, I don't find the messaging gloomy enough. I know it's not what people want to hear, but the UK has been in overall decline for over 16 years now, and that decline has significantly worsened in the last 5. I also don't understand where all the surprise about it comes from. Starmers messaging is relatively consistent with noises he was making before the election, and I think we all expected the whole classic and customary "even worse than thought" stuff afterwards. That always happens. There's clearly some naivety still out there that needs dealing with, possibly because we've just got so used to the rot.

But with that said, most people are under no illusions, even if they're not still accepting of the full picture. The Tories didn't suffer their worst electoral defeat in history due to hard luck.

The problem with Starmer and Reeves' current vehicle remains the same as it was a couple of years ago. Both are very intelligent and practical (a good thing), but neither are good at spin and PR. I may find this refreshing personally, and so may many others, but I know that many people do not. Cameron and Osborne managed to reach an understanding with the general public by being polished and telling lies about pending national bankruptcy and "we're all in this together". They adopted a programme of ideologically driven pain by bombastic PR campaigns such as "emergency" budgets, and "look, even the Lib Dems agree", whilst giving out sweeties such as legalising same sex marriage, raising the tax free allowance, and forking out for free school meals.

It's a PR/spin problem for Labour now. I'm not worried as this is the way the Emotional Cycle of Change goes. First there's horror, reluctance, protest, and uncertainty. We're also only a couple of months in to a 5 year government and it would be prudent to spend the next 2-3 years getting the unpopular stuff out the way. They just need to tread carefully about how they get the public to the reality acceptance stage. But the decisions they make now should be providing people with "hope and some kind of positive vision for the future", as they're making them to do exactly that. They just need to think about how they sell it better.

 

[BarryZola]

I fear it's a long, long, long way back now for this country. The economy and peoples general standards of living have been in decline since the early 2000s and then as you mention above the last 5 years or so have been the worst, and have really split the people and made them more angry than I've ever seen before. First we were split by Brexit, then along came Covid and we were split yet more by people who were fed up of the new rules that were there to apparently keep us safe and then others who believed it was best to tow the line for the common good of the people. People just seem to not like each other anymore as the default position, but if you're lucky enough to get to know someone, then you might let them off.

Due to all of this, people just seem to have a lot less regard for the previously accepted written or unwritten rules of society, because I suppose, if it's those people I hate who are expecting the rules to be followed, then why should I care? Obviously not helped by a government telling you to follow rules, absolutely not following the rules themselves. I don't see a lot of cause for optimism personally. I wish I could offer some hope. My best advice, as I've probably said before, is that if your skills or finances enable you to do so then either get out of the country or at least move somewhere a bit less densely populated within this one.

As for the economy itself, I can't offer anything. Unless you're a banker or own a lot of property.

 

[Matt.GC]

I don't see a lot of cause for optimism personally. I wish I could offer some hope. My best advice, as I've probably said before, is that if your skills or finances enable you to do so then either get out of the country or at least move somewhere a bit less densely populated within this one.

As for the economy itself, I can't offer anything. Unless you're a banker or own a lot of property.

Aye, if I had the benefit of having my time again, I would love to have studied hard and also learnt a second language and moved abroad. However, although I agree the situation is pretty grim, I do have some hope. Let me explain:

It feels like for all my life, we’ve only ever had negative politics. I can’t really remember a Britain before austerity, cuts and “hard choices”; I was only 7 when Cameron’s coalition government was elected and austerity began, and since then, it’s just felt like constant doom and gloom, austerity, cuts and “difficult choices” with little positivity.

So what you're describing here Matt is the symptoms of long-term decline. Not necessarily the messaging itself that's at fault, but the doom and gloom reality that's the driving force behind it. Cameron and Osborne came in, grossly exaggerated the problems as an excuse to force through ideologically driven policies (although I accept that some cuts to expenditure had to happen). Rather than deal with the issue, they made it much worse. So you've never known a time where things were any different, because the decline has just got worse.

You haven't lived through full-employment, the mass home building of the 60's and 70's, the attainability of mortgages, free university tuition, the fall of the Berlin Wall, affordable fuel and public transport, the late 80's boom, the mid-90's boom that continued for over a decade, "Cool Britannia", the NHS actually being decent, and new schools being built. Heck, you've never been to Alton Towers when it was anything other than a dump.

But then on the other hand you've also never experienced high interest rates, the UK being baled out by the IMF, the winter of discontent, the wanton destruction of industry, 11.8% unemployment, monetarism, the real and constant threat of Nuclear war, IRA terrorism, the Poll Tax, the early 90's recession, Black Wednesday, 40+ kids per class, and no minimum wage. And this is without mentioning rationing and the aftermath of the second world war (the point in time which has had a significant impact on the way we think of ourselves as a country, and something I don't think we've ever truly accepted).

Now I'm not pretending that this current period of the UK being in the toilet isn't particularly grim. This can probably be traced back to the fall of Lehman Brothers in 2007, we never recovered from the economic crisis fully. Then we've seen the particularly damaging disaster mixture of Brexit, an international pandemic, Liz Truss, and some of the worst governance ever (mostly self inflicted). But when you accept the reality, you can see the positives, the hope, the light at the end of the tunnel.

As they say, the first step of treating an illness or addiction is to accept that there's a problem. And the UK is sick and needs surgery. Should we not take great comfort from the fact that we're no longer having sweet nothings whispered into our ears, all lies, so that we can move on and get on with the job at hand?

Look how unpopular this Winter Fuel policy is? It's been the elephant in the room for 2 decades, everyone knows giving money to millionaires is morally wrong. But the political toxicity of it is now being faced head on. The last government didn't dare go near it, even if they considered it, for that exact reason. Now it's being tackled, and that's now £1.5bn less that doesn't need to be taken out of schools, hospitals and the pockets of the poor.

There's a national wealth fund being set up to attract investment which will grow the economy, provide future jobs, and generate tax revenue to fund public services in the future. The NHS has been declared as broken, but the promise isn't a never end supply of cash to put fires out (although I think they'll end up coughing up some), but structural reforms the change it and modernise it so it's there for you in the future as it has been for me.

You can look at GB Energy as just another PFI device, or you can see it as the UK is serious about getting full on into a growth industry. That growth industry is green energy, which could potentially also be a an important future export in terms of the technology that could be developed. Don't like the economic argument surrounding growth industries and are concerned about polar bears, greenhouse glasses, and foreign fossil fuel prices? Or protectionist and want the UK to be independent of foreign interests? Well it should tick those boxes too.

Those homes that we need? Sorry, Labour won't build enough either. But there will be an improvement on what we're all used to, and they seem to have an aggressive stance on planning.

It's accepted that AI is here to stay, and that Industry 4.0/ the fourth industrial revolution is in full swing. But rather than stick our fingers in our ears and pretend it's not happening, the government have spoken of embracing it as part of its industrial strategy to boost productivity (desperately needed) and growth, and it's inclusion in public services.

You know that other thing that everyone knows is needed but is frightened to mention as it's seen as just an unrealistic pipe dream? That one thing that will save the NHS billions and give us security in old age? Whilst there's no concrete plans as of yet, the Prime Minister has mentioned a National Care Service numerous times since assuming office, even mentioning it last week.

I hope you're not too much of fan of your local Train Operating Company, extortionate ticket prices, and crappy service. That's all going over the next few years, and whilst I'm yet to be convinced we'll see large improvements, it's a start. The nationalised TOC's already perform better than most private ones, and the nationalisation itself won't cost taxpayers a penny.

Yes in the medium term your taxes will rise, there will be further cuts to already broken public services, growth will continue to be sluggish, and your local council may go bust. No one will walk out of university straight into their dream job. Rents will continue to rise. Buying a home will still be difficult. The NHS will remain in crisis for a while yet. HS2 is already a disaster and will remain so. Some infrastructure projects in your local area may end up being cancelled.

But is the fact that we have a government admitting how terrible everything is and how long it will take to fix not a positive on its own? I'd say it is. I find it refreshing that we seem to have a government that is no longer accepting the status quo. For the first time in my adult life, we seem to be facing facts. Even in the economic booms of the later Major, and all of the Blair years, which I personally found was a great time to be alive, there were still sacred norms that weren't tackled. Long term issues not faced in to. Things kicked into the long grass.

But all this preliminary wrecking ball stuff (mostly words at the moment) is new (Liz Truss doesn't count, that was just an attempt to resserect Thatcher in a different century). I like it! Of course it remains to be seen if anything works, and I'm still not totally convinced, check back in 2034. But at least they're doing unpopular stuff that we all knew in our heart of hearts needed doing. That's what gives me hope, not just accepting terminal decline and that things have to be as they've always been.

Does that not give off a positive vibe? Is it just me? Or do we want to continue burying our heads in the sand as to not cause immediate upset and emotional distress? You all know it's not like me to have a positive outlook, but I kind of do at the moment!

 

[Poisson]

They need to make some unpopular and tough decisions. They need to balance the books whilst doing so as well. The political game of making the bad decisions early will also be in effect. The obvious major thing to get some support would be to adjust foreign aid, but I don't think they have the guts for it. They should be putting the money into designated refugee camps directly and then maybe take the nuclear step and say anyone arriving not through a proper channel is denied asylum. Something to break the back of the amount of people coming, then they need less hotels, less expenditure and get a popularity boost. Something BIG and positive would do this government a world of good but I think they're scared.

 

[BarryZola]

Aye, if I had the benefit of having my time again, I would love to have studied hard and also learnt a second language and moved abroad. However, although I agree the situation is pretty grim, I do have some hope. Let me explain:

So what you're describing here Matt is the symptoms of long-term decline. Not necessarily the messaging itself that's at fault, but the doom and gloom reality that's the driving force behind it. Cameron and Osborne came in, grossly exaggerated the problems as an excuse to force through ideologically driven policies (although I accept that some cuts to expenditure had to happen). Rather than deal with the issue, they made it much worse. So you've never known a time where things were any different, because the decline has just got worse.

You haven't lived through full-employment, the mass home building of the 60's and 70's, the attainability of mortgages, free university tuition, the fall of the Berlin Wall, affordable fuel and public transport, the late 80's boom, the mid-90's boom that continued for over a decade, "Cool Britannia", the NHS actually being decent, and new schools being built. Heck, you've never been to Alton Towers when it was anything other than a dump.

But then on the other hand you've also never experienced high interest rates, the UK being baled out by the IMF, the winter of discontent, the wanton destruction of industry, 11.8% unemployment, monetarism, the real and constant threat of Nuclear war, IRA terrorism, the Poll Tax, the early 90's recession, Black Wednesday, 40+ kids per class, and no minimum wage. And this is without mentioning rationing and the aftermath of the second world war (the point in time which has had a significant impact on the way we think of ourselves as a country, and something I don't think we've ever truly accepted).

Now I'm not pretending that this current period of the UK being in the toilet isn't particularly grim. This can probably be traced back to the fall of Lehman Brothers in 2007, we never recovered from the economic crisis fully. Then we've seen the particularly damaging disaster mixture of Brexit, an international pandemic, Liz Truss, and some of the worst governance ever (mostly self inflicted). But when you accept the reality, you can see the positives, the hope, the light at the end of the tunnel.

As they say, the first step of treating an illness or addiction is to accept that there's a problem. And the UK is sick and needs surgery. Should we not take great comfort from the fact that we're no longer having sweet nothings whispered into our ears, all lies, so that we can move on and get on with the job at hand?

Look how unpopular this Winter Fuel policy is? It's been the elephant in the room for 2 decades, everyone knows giving money to millionaires is morally wrong. But the political toxicity of it is now being faced head on. The last government didn't dare go near it, even if they considered it, for that exact reason. Now it's being tackled, and that's now £1.5bn less that doesn't need to be taken out of schools, hospitals and the pockets of the poor.

There's a national wealth fund being set up to attract investment which will grow the economy, provide future jobs, and generate tax revenue to fund public services in the future. The NHS has been declared as broken, but the promise isn't a never end supply of cash to put fires out (although I think they'll end up coughing up some), but structural reforms the change it and modernise it so it's there for you in the future as it has been for me.

You can look at GB Energy as just another PFI device, or you can see it as the UK is serious about getting full on into a growth industry. That growth industry is green energy, which could potentially also be a an important future export in terms of the technology that could be developed. Don't like the economic argument surrounding growth industries and are concerned about polar bears, greenhouse glasses, and foreign fossil fuel prices? Or protectionist and want the UK to be independent of foreign interests? Well it should tick those boxes too.

Those homes that we need? Sorry, Labour won't build enough either. But there will be an improvement on what we're all used to, and they seem to have an aggressive stance on planning.

It's accepted that AI is here to stay, and that Industry 4.0/ the fourth industrial revolution is in full swing. But rather than stick our fingers in our ears and pretend it's not happening, the government have spoken of embracing it as part of its industrial strategy to boost productivity (desperately needed) and growth, and it's inclusion in public services.

You know that other thing that everyone knows is needed but is frightened to mention as it's seen as just an unrealistic pipe dream? That one thing that will save the NHS billions and give us security in old age? Whilst there's no concrete plans as of yet, the Prime Minister has mentioned a National Care Service numerous times since assuming office, even mentioning it last week.

I hope you're not too much of fan of your local Train Operating Company, extortionate ticket prices, and crappy service. That's all going over the next few years, and whilst I'm yet to be convinced we'll see large improvements, it's a start. The nationalised TOC's already perform better than most private ones, and the nationalisation itself won't cost taxpayers a penny.

Yes in the medium term your taxes will rise, there will be further cuts to already broken public services, growth will continue to be sluggish, and your local council may go bust. No one will walk out of university straight into their dream job. Rents will continue to rise. Buying a home will still be difficult. The NHS will remain in crisis for a while yet. HS2 is already a disaster and will remain so. Some infrastructure projects in your local area may end up being cancelled.

But is the fact that we have a government admitting how terrible everything is and how long it will take to fix not a positive on its own? I'd say it is. I find it refreshing that we seem to have a government that is no longer accepting the status quo. For the first time in my adult life, we seem to be facing facts. Even in the economic booms of the later Major, and all of the Blair years, which I personally found was a great time to be alive, there were still sacred norms that weren't tackled. Long term issues not faced in to. Things kicked into the long grass.

But all this preliminary wrecking ball stuff (mostly words at the moment) is new (Liz Truss doesn't count, that was just an attempt to resserect Thatcher in a different century). I like it! Of course it remains to be seen if anything works, and I'm still not totally convinced, check back in 2034. But at least they're doing unpopular stuff that we all knew in our heart of hearts needed doing. That's what gives me hope, not just accepting terminal decline and that things have to be as they've always been.

Does that not give off a positive vibe? Is it just me? Or do we want to continue burying our heads in the sand as to not cause immediate upset and emotional distress? You all know it's not like me to have a positive outlook, but I kind of do at the moment!

Well, that was definitely well argued and I'm almost coming along for the ride. Some lovely points and I agree with most of what you've said. I totally agree with the fact that we have to face up to the reality of the poor state of the country before we can have any hope of improving it. Personally, I think we're way too far gone to get back to a standard of living with life chances that those adults between the 60s and 90s had a chance to enjoy, but I found what you said provoked a few more positive thoughts than I thought this thread could do.

 

[BarryZola]

They need to make some unpopular and tough decisions. They need to balance the books whilst doing so as well. The political game of making the bad decisions early will also be in effect. The obvious major thing to get some support would be to adjust foreign aid, but I don't think they have the guts for it. They should be putting the money into designated refugee camps directly and then maybe take the nuclear step and say anyone arriving not through a proper channel is denied asylum. Something to break the back of the amount of people coming, then they need less hotels, less expenditure and get a popularity boost. Something BIG and positive would do this government a world of good but I think they're scared.

Absolutely. Agree a quota system with (funded) asylum centres around Europe (or whatever) to accept a percentage of refugees dependent on what your country can cope with (which includes population and services per square mile in populated areas or whatever). Then if people turn up here illegally they're banned from ever being granted asylum. That way these needy people would be more likely to contact (projected) asylum centers/systems and be distributed to a safe country whenever their asylum (or whatever) is granted. Would stop people choosing to just move to another country of their choice when that's not the point of claiming that you need to leave a war-torn country because your life is immediately danger. And yes, if my life in England was in immediate danger I would be thankful to be plonked in Argentina immediately if needed. I would just use Google translate if I had to and understand I was at least safe from the immediate danger in whatever country I'd come from.

 

[Alsty]

Random thought but did anybody notice how people coming across the channel in small boats wasn't an issue before Brexit?

 

[rob666]

To be fair, before that it was via fabric sided lorries and via the channel tunnel, and a number of fishing boats I understand.
Routes and methods change, but there has always been illegal immigration since the sixties, particularly to the large immigrant communities in urban areas.
Many are the parents of my old school mates.