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UK Politics General Discussion

What will be the result of the UK’s General Election?

  • Conservative Majority

    Votes: 3 2.5%

  • Conversative Biggest Party in Hung Parliament

    Votes: 2 1.7%

  • Labour Majority

    Votes: 87 72.5%

  • Labour Biggest Party in Hung Parliament

    Votes: 28 23.3%

  • Other Result (Please specify in your post)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    120
  • Poll closed .
Are people even aware how complicated and lengthy the forms are to complete? 243 questions over 24 pages. And people wonder why there are pensioners who haven’t claimed it yet.

uk.news.yahoo.com

DWP warns people must pass 243 questions and 24 pages to claim Pension Credit

Older people hoping to qualify for the Winter Fuel Allowance have 24 pages and 15 sections to plough through.
uk.news.yahoo.com uk.news.yahoo.com

If Labour can count how many are eligible but haven’t claimed, send someone around to their homes and fill in the bloody forms with them. It’s not just a case of not knowing how to use a computer but we all know how complex government forms can be to fill in let alone attaching all the relevant paperwork.

And then to look back at some of the arguments from Starmer before being elected against voting for the tories. One of which was about stopping the winter fuel payments and his disgust at seeing pensioners unable to heat their homes.


From: https://x.com/jamesmelville/status/1824709147679408228?s=46



From: https://x.com/keir_starmer/status/1785303047704346728?s=46


It’s no wonder even the unions wanted it overturned. But never mind, those MPs on their £90k a year with second home heating allowances don’t have to worry do they.

Meanwhile the FT put in a FOI request for details of this £22m black hole which was refused so ministers could “check the amount is correct and accurate”.


From: https://x.com/ftukpolitics/status/1833962236429128187?s=46


Meanwhile, yesterday we send another £600m of weaponary to Ukraine. So we let elderly people freeze to death in their homes but we have money for bombs and guns.

What a screwed up country/world.
 
GaryH said:
Are people even aware how complicated and lengthy the forms are to complete? 243 questions over 24 pages. And people wonder why there are pensioners who haven’t claimed it yet.
Click to expand...
Those are the paper forms, they cover every eventuality and are similar to the census (if A then fill out B, if D then fill out Y). It takes less than 5 minutes online. Job Centre Plus (run by DWP) have front of house staff trained to help pensioners fill in the online forms, or check their status, without appointment and onsite.
 
Winter Fuel payments were always a vote bribe, and never part of the means tested benefits system. They're not obliged to do a full impact assessment, which that article states.

A bit like how the Tory government didn't care about the impact of the 2 child benefit cap. Or the impact of them letting convicts out early because they broke the prison system. Or the impact of illegal immigration because of cuts to the border force. Or when, despite economist warnings, they cut the economy back into recession following the financial crisis, and paved the way for disastrous policy decisions for years to come. Or when they gambled the country's future away by holding a constitutional referendum for pure internal party polical reasons, without having any plan, contingency, or preparing the civil service for one of the said referendum's potential outcomes. Or when they stimulated huge increases in house prices by offering irresponsible schemes to people, whilst doing nothing to sort out housing supply. Or when they crashed the economy, presided over the near collapse of many pension funds, drove inflation up to double digits, and doubled people's mortgage payments. Or when they sent COVID positive people back to care homes, resulting in a huge amount of avoidable deaths. Or when they closed Sure Start Centres. Or when they flatlined the economy for 14 years, presided over stagnant productivity, and painted the country into a corner by spending wildly, and raising the national debt as a percentage of GDP to near 100%, meaning that decisions like this later Winter Fuel cut have to be implemented.

The government remain committed to the Triple Lock (which I think is wrong and should also go, but it's a manifesto pledge) which will see the state pension rise by far more than the winter fuel payment would have been. And they're having a drive to get more people to sign up for pension credit. And those on Pension Credit will still get it. That sounds like they've considered potential impacts and put some thought into it to me.

I'm sorry, but this still looks like a sour grapes storm in a teacup. There is zero justification for spending over £1bn of taxpayers money to stuff the bank accounts of people who don't need it. It may not be perfect, but at least they're coming up with ideas to try and dig the country out of this hole we find ourselves in. What are the alternatives? Giving to drunk driver who crashed into a tree the car keys back for another 5 years?

We tried Populism in 2017 and 2019, and that didn't go too well did it? This policy is unpopular because no one wants to loose money, but I think having a government that puts practically above popularity is exactly what we need right now. I'm still not convinced they can pull all this off, but the signs are positive so far that they're willing to administer the bitter medicine that we've been told for years we did not need to take. Thinking we can carry on pretending that all is well and things like this don't have to be implemented is downright delusional. No one can credibly claim that they don't like politicians not being honest and that they're "all the same" with one breath, and then attack policies like this. Anyone crying about this should probably get themselves down to Costco for a whole case of Kleenex in preparation for the upcoming budget!
 
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GaryH said:
No impact assessment was carried out looking at increased illness and death from cutting winter fuel allowances admits the government.

Unbelievable.

www.theguardian.com

We did not do impact assessment of winter fuel payment cut, No 10 admits

Spokesperson for Keir Starmer says focus was instead on encouraging pensioners to seek additional support
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
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Completely believable.
That is why the government is trying to get people to sign up for pension credit.
Giving every pensioner a nice bung of three hundred quid is unneccesary, and wasteful of precious resources.
The allowance is a modern invention, less than thirty years old, so pensioners didn't "work all their lives" for it...

Last nights pub discussion in the Velvet.
Our friends ex mother in law called it her winter holiday voucher.
Two of my customers call it the christmas shopping voucher.
Why should my millionaire retired customers get assistance, there is no sense or logic to it.

Nice to see you have started reading the Grauniad though Gary!
 
GaryH said:
No impact assessment was carried out looking at increased illness and death from cutting winter fuel allowances admits the government.

Unbelievable.
Click to expand...
No impact assessment was carried out, looking at the increased illness and death, from cutting Universal Credit by £20 a week in 2021 either. The Conservatives still went ahead and did it, with the support of the red tops and Daily Mail. Where was this compassion for the most vulnerable in society then?
 
GooseOnTheLoose said:
No impact assessment was carried out, looking at the increased illness and death, from cutting Universal Credit by £20 a week in 2021 either. The Conservatives still went ahead and did it, with the support of the red tops and Daily Mail. Where was this compassion for the most vulnerable in society then?
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Yeah but disabled people don't count/are drains on society/faking it to sit at home all day/etc.



(Sarcasm btw)
 
Ahh yes the “let’s blame the last government they left us a £22bn black hole” excuse. So predictable. Yeah the Tories did a lot of things wrong, as have Labour and Lib Dem’s in the past (university fees) and no doubt this is going to be the Labour mantra going forwards for the next 4 years.

I had hoped a new government would bring a refresh, some honesty and openness but we were warned the Labour government was just the tories in a different suit. Looks like they were right.

rob666 said:
Last nights pub discussion in the Velvet.
Our friends ex mother in law called it her winter holiday voucher.
Two of my customers call it the christmas shopping voucher.
Click to expand...
I absolutely agree. And it’s these pensioners which should have had the benefit removed, not those who are £2 or £3 just under the threshold to receive it. I’ve always said this.
rob666 said:
Nice to see you have started reading the Grauniad though Gary!
Click to expand...
Thanks Rob, though I read all news sources, not loyal to any particular one.


If any of us are still reading this forum when we are retired and old then would be the best time to comment on how things are going. But let’s remember that while winter fuel allowance may have been a “fad” at the time, energy prices are the highest they have ever been, we have some of the highest prices in Europe and they just went up the week after the fuel allowance is cut. Even with the increase in pensions just announced, factor in other costs and pensioners will be lucky to get an extra few quid a week from it.
 
GaryH said:
...
If any of us are still reading this forum when we are retired and old then would be the best time to comment on how things are going. But let’s remember that while winter fuel allowance may have been a “fad” at the time, energy prices are the highest they have ever been...
Click to expand...
That would be me, in another five years time, if I'm still alive, I will get back to you on it mate...
And point 2.
Energy prices were at their highest ever back in 2022...
My energy price.
Dirty stinking coal at my local merchant has actually gone down by around 5% since last year.
Some clearance recycled firewood charity projects reduced their prices by 30% over the summer to clear stock.
People now heat houses not rooms, often because they have no choice.
Heating rooms is much cheaper.
The fad for modern open plan living also adds to heating costs.
My very old fashioned boiler heats the house, but we have a multi fuel smokeless stove that burns coal on a miser stove at about twenty pounds a week, with all my work prunings for tinder and kindling, and a gas fire in the other room for instant heat when required.

One radio report suggested that half of the winter fuel allowance didn't go on fuel.
A very blunt pensioner suggested they just add a fiver a week to pension credit.
Job done.
 
rob666 said:
That would be me, in another five years time, if I'm still alive, I will get back to you on it mate...

People now heat houses not rooms, often because they have no choice.
Click to expand...
Look forward to hearing from you in those years Rob! will give me time to ready myself for when I’m retiring!

Second bit I think was a typo? You mean people heat rooms not houses yes? For the elderly I agree, like my dad, he sits at home wearing a beanie and coat rather than turn on the heating. When I visit it’s like entering the artic where you can see your voice when speaking. He is so afraid of high heating bills even though now he lives alone.

We got a log burner installed two years ago. Kiln dried logs were £120 for a truck load in the first year. £180 a truck load last year. I haven’t enquired yet what this years prices are.

The guy who delivers then informs me that tree specialists now have to sell a certain amount of their wood to UK power stations to be turned into pellets which in turn leaves them short of wood to sell to his customers. As a result he and others are having to import chopped logs from abroad to sell to customers here in the UK.

Suppose it’s like coal. We have tons of the stuff, high quality too in this country, yet we import it from China. Save the planet by not having these industries in the UK, but don’t care about having them elsewhere, or about using huge oil and diesel tankers to ship them half way across the world to get here!

By the way, before people have a go for having a log burner, it’s a modern one, very clean burning, meets all the relevant clean air standards blah blah blah. I’m also not advocating everyone burning coal, but highlighting how we import this stuff from thousands of miles away when we have it right here on our doorsteps!
 
GaryH said:
I’m also not advocating everyone burning coal, but highlighting how we import this stuff from thousands of miles away when we have it right here on our doorsteps!
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Ratcliffe, the last remaining coal power station in the UK, will close this month. The UK's power grid will be coal free from October 1st 2025, a few months ahead of schedule.

Coal Countdown

Counting down the UK's remaining coal-fired power stations. The UK plans to phase out coal plants by 2025.
www.powerstations.uk www.powerstations.uk
 
GaryH said:
Second bit I think was a typo? You mean people heat rooms not houses yes? For the elderly I agree, like my dad, he sits at home wearing a beanie and coat rather than turn on the heating. When I visit it’s like entering the artic where you can see your voice when speaking. He is so afraid of high heating bills even though now he lives alone.
Click to expand...
I read Robs post that traditionally, before central heating, it was normal to heat rooms not houses. You'd have the coal fire on in the lounge or the range cooker on in the kitchen. Its only with modern central heating that people moved to heating whole houses. If your Dad is living alone he could switch to just having a heater in the room he is in, similar to what Rob was discussing. Or use the central heating to heat to a lower level and then separately raise the temperature higher in one room.
But the other issue more generally is the "fear" of high bills. Has he actually tried having the heating on and seeing what the bill is? Is the insulation and windows suitable for heat retention. I think there has been a lot of fearmongering in the press of "costs will rise, the elderly will die" when for many people, if managed sensibly (so not heating to extremes) energy bills will be fine.
 
GooseOnTheLoose said:
No impact assessment was carried out, looking at the increased illness and death, from cutting Universal Credit by £20 a week in 2021 either. The Conservatives still went ahead and did it, with the support of the red tops and Daily Mail. Where was this compassion for the most vulnerable in society then?
Click to expand...

Yes you’re right, the £20 bonus that was paid to people on UC during Covid wasn’t reintroduced which did cause additional hardship I quite agree.

The only difference I would say here is that the median age of those on UC is 39. It’s a benefit mainly for working age people. Younger people don’t feel the cold as much as the elderly, and many elderly will have health problems which may require the heating to be on more, or for equipment to be running 24/7. My mum during cancer treatment was always freezing cold, even on a relatively warm day. She had to have the heating on constantly in the house. It would be totally tropical for us.

Energy prices did spike in 2022 as Russia invaded Ukraine and Europe was starting to get back to work after Covid. If I recall however the government stopped energy prices from passing on some of the rises to consumers by not allowing them to lift the price cap. This was when many smaller energy companies went bust. According this document, prices would have risen by 80% had this intervention not taken place.


However yes I take your point, at a time when fuel prices were rising the removal of the £20 bonus did push some those on UC into hardship, and like the winter fuel payments, the whole thing should have been managed better to ensure those close to the borderline are not pushed even further into hardship.
 
jon81uk said:
I read Robs post that traditionally, before central heating, it was normal to heat rooms not houses. You'd have the coal fire on in the lounge or the range cooker on in the kitchen. Its only with modern central heating that people moved to heating whole houses. If your Dad is living alone he could switch to just having a heater in the room he is in, similar to what Rob was discussing. Or use the central heating to heat to a lower level and then separately raise the temperature higher in one room.
But the other issue more generally is the "fear" of high bills. Has he actually tried having the heating on and seeing what the bill is? Is the insulation and windows suitable for heat retention. I think there has been a lot of fearmongering in the press of "costs will rise, the elderly will die" when for many people, if managed sensibly (so not heating to extremes) energy bills will be fine.
Click to expand...

I quite agree and have gone through his bills with him, fixed the prices etc, but now living alone after losing mum his pension is much lower in terms of household income, though he isn’t eligible for any pension credits (have checked).

I think combined with running costs for his car, which, let’s be honest for a pensioner is their lifeline to get out and about, food prices, household bills and fuel bills, as you get older and the brain isn’t as sharp and people sit and watch the news in the daytime as there isn’t much else to do, these things do make you scared to do things.

He will never do online banking, or fill in forms online due to all the scammers out there, and he is part of a large majority of pensioners who feel the same. The thought of someone stealing your life savings from the click of a button absolutely terrifies older people. I mean it’s bad enough for us younger ones, I still have times when I second glance a text or email which looks very genuine and nearly fall for it. When you are 80 and not as switched on an anymore it’s a daily minefield for these prime to sift through what is real and what isn’t.

So many don’t and won’t go online because of this.

I’ll keep trying though with him, I always turn it up when I visit!!
 
GaryH said:
Ahh yes the “let’s blame the last government they left us a £22bn black hole” excuse. So predictable. Yeah the Tories did a lot of things wrong, as have Labour and Lib Dem’s in the past (university fees) and no doubt this is going to be the Labour mantra going forwards for the next 4 years.

I had hoped a new government would bring a refresh, some honesty and openness but we were warned the Labour government was just the tories in a different suit. Looks like they were right.
Click to expand...

It is the new government play book, happens every time we have a change of governing party. The Tories blamed Labour when they took over, and now Labour are doing the exact same thing.

New governments know they have 5 years in power (barring any unlikely events), so they are always going to do all the bad stuff early on, especially when it is easy to blame the last lot. They will wait till nearer the next election before they do anything that people like.

A new government is always just the old government in a different suit.

Regarding the winter fuel allowance debate, it is definitely time to means test it. Or just scrap it altogether.

I live in an old not particularly well insulated house and my energy bills are currently £75 a month for electric and gas. This is easily enough to cover me for the extra energy I will use in the winter.
 
Matt.GC said:
Victoria Atkins blamed Gordon Brown's government for the state of the NHS during the Tories 14 years in government just yesterday!
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Oh I agree, despite what people may think, I not siding with any political party here, but i had hoped Labour would have come into this without coming up with the same tag line every time they are challenged on something.

The biggest mistake with the NHS was the closing of the community hospitals, something Starmer says he will bring back. Not quite sure that will work everywhere as many were bulldozed for houses, but I recall growing up having many community hospitals around us and hardly ever having to go to the main “big” hospital in the city.

I do hope this does go ahead because it will reduce the burden on the main sites massively.
 
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