2019 General Election Poll and Discussion

[Alsty]

May I suggest to admin that this thread is renamed "The Jeremy Corbyn Fanclub" thread

This almost has a Trump vs Clinton feel about it. I actually don't like either of them, but given the choice I'll take the one who hasn't lied to the electorate and the Queen, the one whose government hasn't ruined public services through chronic underfunding, the one which hasn't presided while crime, homelessness and other social issues deteriorate, the one which hasn't been incompetent to the point of giving post Brexit ferry contracts to companies with no ferries etc etc...

The idiom "an action speaks a thousand words" should be applied here. Why should I trust the Conservatives with their promises to improve crime figures, build more hospitals, reduce the deficit, invest in schools and public services when they've failed to do so in the last nine years? It's almost farcical saying they will unleash Britain's potential... they have had ample time to do that without any success. It's almost an admission they have failed in their previous three terms.

 

[bluesonichd]

The Chief Rabbi has branded Jeremy Corbyn “unfit for high office” and says that the Labour leader’s claim to have dealt with all allegations of antisemitism is “a mendacious fiction”.
Ephraim Mirvis has warned that the “very soul of our nation is at stake” in next month’s general election if Labour get into power.
https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/chief-rabbi-brands-jeremy-corbyn-unfit-for-high-of/

 

[grrrr]

“Antisemitism exists across Britain’s political spectrum. This week both Tory and Liberal Democrat candidates have been suspended for offensive remarks. We also need to discuss other forms of racism. It is not whataboutery to point to the endemic problem of Islamophobia in the Conservative party, or to note the prime minister’s description of African people as “piccaninnies” with “watermelon smiles”, or his likening of Muslim women to letterboxes, which reportedly provoked a surge in anti-Muslim attacks, or his leadership of a referendum campaign that threatened voters with the arrival of 76 million Turkish migrants. The only candidate for prime minister who has repeatedly written racist things and promoted racist policies is Johnson.”

- Jonathan Lis writing in The Guardian, “I’m Jewish and I’m voting Labour in the general election. Here’s why”

 

[Alsty]

Perhaps you'd like to see the Conservative Culture Secretary justify how 50,000 more nurses includes 19,000 who are already nurses?

 

[grrrr]

That feel when you’re actually agreeing with Piers about something...

I hate the fact that Nicky Morgan keeps just saying “it’s crystal clear” and “let me be clear” when she’s not being clear at all. What a tit.

 

[Benzin]

None of the leaders are particularly great, but it comes down to past running of the country and the new manifestos...

The main problem I have (and is clear in this thread) is that politics is almost as tribal as football... One side are always looking to put the other down in any way possible, and the fervent supporters help this greatly... Hence nonsense about the EU becoming so deep seated that bendy bananas were a major political talking point once upon a time...

It's nonsense to vote for one party all your life as they all change and evolve (or revert back to the 1800s) with the landscape... And it's nonsense to see that people even when pretty much disproven in an argument still cling to the idea that THEIR party is the best at whatever because someone met a bad person during a time when the country was involved in serious troubles...

I'm not voting for Corbyn, I'm voting for the best party for my area...

 

[Lurker]

The Chief Rabbi has branded Jeremy Corbyn “unfit for high office” and says that the Labour leader’s claim to have dealt with all allegations of antisemitism is “a mendacious fiction”.
Ephraim Mirvis has warned that the “very soul of our nation is at stake” in next month’s general election if Labour get into power.
https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/chief-rabbi-brands-jeremy-corbyn-unfit-for-high-of/

I was wondering if they covered any specifics about who the labour party have failed to deal with. Unfortunately it appears that article was Pulled. Very curious.

 

[bluesonichd]

I was wondering if they covered any specifics about who the labour party have failed to deal with. Unfortunately it appears that article was Pulled. Very curious.

The original article from the Times
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...or-high-office-says-ephraim-mirvis-0thlclsns#

 

[Funcone]

Sorry if it’s already been shared in another thread, but there was an interesting press release from Thorpe Park a few days ago. I've posted it in this thread because I thought it was slightly relevant to the election.

“We’ve only just finished our most successful Fright Nights EVER!!! And we’re already planning to make Fright Nights 2020 the ultimate scare event in the WORLD!!! To decide on a story for the world’s scariest horror maze, we needed to pick the ultimate theme, so we surveyed the Great British public to find out what their BIGGEST fear is. They gave us all kinds of answers: spiders, snakes, serial killers, clowns… But it’s OFFICIAL, Britain’s biggest fear is the super rich having to pay slightly higher taxes so that everyone can get good quality health care.

We are now building the ULTIMATE scare maze. Brave explorers will see the super rich having to get by while paying slightly higher taxes. At the end, those who haven’t already run fleeing, will face their ULTIMATE NIGHTMARE, when doctor Bartek from Poland welcomes them into his properly funded ward. Will you DARE to brave this horror?”

 

[jon81uk]

The main problem I have (and is clear in this thread) is that politics is almost as tribal as football... One side are always looking to put the other down in any way possible, and the fervent supporters help this greatly..

I'm broadly in favour of the ballot paper only listing the name of your local candidate, not the party they are affiliated with. So you have to research and know who you are voting for instead of blindly choosing the party.

 

[GaryH]

Perhaps you'd like to see the Conservative Culture Secretary justify how 50,000 more nurses includes 19,000 who are already nurses?

Just as good as Dianne Abbot talking about 10,000 police officers costing £300,000, thus just being worth £30 each lol. And the funniest bit being hearing her shuffling her papers around in the background to try and figure it out.

 

[GaryH]

Why should I trust the Conservatives

Very true
And why should you trust Labour ?
Why trust the Lib Dems?
Why trust the Greens?

What Brexit has shown the general public is that politicians cannot be trusted and do not believe in democracy. At the end of the day, they will do whatever the hell they want, provided it benefits them. None of them are trustworthy.

 

[Lurker]

The original article from the Times
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...or-high-office-says-ephraim-mirvis-0thlclsns#

Ended up reading this on the BBC & Guardian due to paywall.

Unfortunately neither had specific cases of where labour had not dealt with anti-Semitism (or racism generally) within the party. There was a general note of it was too slow, but it seems to be without evidence that Labours claim of "all complaints dealt with".

Disappointing as I'd be swayed by a comment as simple as "case X against Y lodged by Z has still not been handled".

Hopefully the Journalists can get on it and give an example.

 

[Lurker]

Just as good as Dianne Abbot talking about 10,000 police officers costing £300,000, thus just being worth £30 each lol. And the funniest bit being hearing her shuffling her papers around in the background to try and figure it out.

What's slightly different here is the Abbot genuinely made a mistake with the figure, and clearly didn't have the correct one to hand. Pretty obvious mistake but easy to make under pressure.

The 50,000 nurses figure is in the manifesto, has been repeated by Johnson and defended by several Tory MPs including Johnson.

However I actually think that whilst the number is obviously bogus to grab headlines, they've hit onto an actual problem. We do need to focus on how to retain nurses and make sure there is an investment into nurses who aren't happy at work.

The point remains though, should you be so creative with the statistics. And the clear answer is no, it's a form of lying and a form intended to get through to people who won't fact check. Johnson has done this time and again, and it's good to see someone call them out on it.

 

[GaryH]

What's slightly different here is the Abbot genuinely made a mistake with the figure, and clearly didn't have the correct one to hand. Pretty obvious mistake but easy to make under pressure.

Oh come on, she is the Shadow Home Secretary, she couldn't even do simple maths. And then she couldnt give a straight answer about the cost, erm, umm, shuffle shuffle, "I think it may be around £8 million". Think?

Yeah the Tory video was just as bad, but come on, its about time people stop seeing the Labour party through rose tinted spectacles just to oust the Tory's and just dismiss things as unimportant. T

Torys and Labour are just as bad as each other. If people want to have REAL change then why doesnt everyone vote Lib Dems?

 

[Plastic Person]

Torys and Labour are just as bad as each other. If people want to have REAL change then why doesnt everyone vote Lib Dems?

Because nothing in their manifesto really signifies much in the way of real change, and they would continue with austerity in a manner not too different to the Tories?

 

[bluesonichd]

Hopefully the Journalists can get on it and give an example.

Why do you need a journalist to give you proof.
If the spiritual leader of the UK’s orthodox synagogues thinks Labour are not doing enough about antisemitism or taking it seriously.
That says everything.

Spoiler: Times news story

Labour antisemitism: Corbyn not fit for high office, says Ephraim Mirvis

‘New poison’ in the party has been ‘sanctioned from the top’

November 25 2019, The Times

Jeremy Corbyn’s handling of antisemitism allegations makes him “unfit for high office”, the Chief Rabbi has said while warning that the “very soul of our nation is at stake” in next month’s general election.

In an unprecedented intervention into politics, which he describes as “amongst the most painful moments” of his career, Ephraim Mirvis says that “a new poison” has taken hold in Labour “sanctioned from the very top”.

In an article for The Timestoday, the Chief Rabbi says that the Labour leader’s claim to have dealt with all allegations of antisemitism is “a mendacious fiction” and the way that the party has handled the claims is “incompatible with the British values of which we are so proud”.

Labour, he says, can no longer claim to be the party of diversity, equality and anti-racism. Its record on antisemitism in opposition, he says, left him asking: “What should we expect of them in government?”

His comments come after Tony Blair, the last Labour leader to win an election, criticised Mr Corbyn’s manifesto as an unachievable wish-list and suggested that Britain should vote tactically for a hung parliament.

The former prime minister said that Mr Corbyn’s plans would “end badly”, refused to endorse him as fit to run the country and gave him little chance of a majority. He described Britain’s politics as “utterly dysfunctional” and said that only another referendum could end the Brexit impasse.

Allegations of antisemitism have plagued Labour and Mr Corbyn since he was elected to the leadership in September 2015. Thirteen Labour MPs have quit the party since 2017 at least partly in protest at its handling of antisemitism.

Mr Corbyn has insisted repeatedly that he is not antisemitic and the party has defended its processes for dealing with complaints.

In his article for The Times, however, Rabbi Mirvis says that British Jews are gripped by an understandable and justified anxiety. He writes: “How complicit in prejudice would a leader of Her Majesty’s opposition have to be to be considered unfit for office? Would associations with those who have incited hatred against Jews be enough? Would describing as ‘friends’ those who endorse the murder of Jews be enough? It seems not.

“It is not my place to tell any person how they should vote. I regret being in this situation at all. I simply pose the question: What will the result of this election say about the moral compass of our country? When December 12 arrives, I ask every person to vote with their conscience. Be in no doubt, the very soul of our nation is at stake.”

Rabbi Mirvis, who is the spiritual leader of the UK’s orthodox synagogues, has previously criticised Labour over antisemitism, saying in January that he was “still waiting” for the issue to be taken seriously by the party. His comments today, however, go far further and come at a critical ti in the election campaign.

Lord Sacks, his predecessor, has accused Mr Corbyn of being an antisemite and likened him to Enoch Powell — a comparison that Labour said was absurd and offensive. Rabbi Mirvis succeeded Lord Sacks in 2013.

The chief rabbi said he expected that he would now be “demonised by faceless social media trolls and accused of being partisan or acting in bad faith by those who still think of this as an orchestrated political smear”. But he said that he asked himself: “Should the victims of racism be silenced by the fear of yet further vilification?”

He wrote: “We sit powerless, watching with incredulity as supporters of the Labour leadership have hounded parliamentarians, party members and even staff out of the party for facing down anti-Jewish racism. Even as they received unspeakable threats against themselves and their families, the response of the Labour leadership was utterly inadequate.

“We have endured quibbling and prevarication over whether the party should adopt the most widely accepted definition of antisemitism in the world… Now, astonishingly we await the outcome of a formal investigation by the Equality and Human Rights Commission into whether discrimination by the party against Jews has become an institutional problem. And all of this whilst in opposition. What should we expect of them in government?”

A Labour spokeswoman said: “Jeremy Corbyn is a lifelong campaigner against antisemitism and has made absolutely clear it has no place in our Party and society and that no one who engages in it does so in his name.

“A Labour government will guarantee the security of the Jewish community, defend and support the Jewish way of life, and combat rising antisemitism in our country and across Europe. Our race and faith manifesto, launched today, sets out our policies to achieve this.”


Discover more from The Times

Download our app

 

[speedy]

Oh come on, she is the Shadow Home Secretary, she couldn't even do simple maths. And then she couldnt give a straight answer about the cost, erm, umm, shuffle shuffle, "I think it may be around £8 million". Think?

Yeah the Tory video was just as bad, but come on, its about time people stop seeing the Labour party through rose tinted spectacles just to oust the Tory's and just dismiss things as unimportant. T

Torys and Labour are just as bad as each other. If people want to have REAL change then why doesnt everyone vote Lib Dems?

What about the 40 new hospitals which turned out to be 8?

Conservative policy appears to be pluck numbers out of thin air and promise to pump cash into random things without a sustainable plan for spending in the future.

£500m for Beeching reversal - barely enough to open one or two lines. £1bn for childcare - how is a cash boost going to to make childcare sustainable? £2bn for potholes! So temporarily fixing some potholes is twice as important as childcare, and four times as important as connecting people with no rail service at all? All apparently funded by borrowing with no plans for tax increases - not sustainable.

Only Libdem policy that stood out to me was their anti Brexit stance, and last I heard they were backing off from that too.

 

[Lurker]

Why do you need a journalist to give you proof.
If the spiritual leader of the UK’s orthodox synagogues thinks Labour are not doing enough about antisemitism or taking it seriously.
That says everything.

Spoiler: Times news story

Labour antisemitism: Corbyn not fit for high office, says Ephraim Mirvis

‘New poison’ in the party has been ‘sanctioned from the top’

November 25 2019, The Times

Jeremy Corbyn’s handling of antisemitism allegations makes him “unfit for high office”, the Chief Rabbi has said while warning that the “very soul of our nation is at stake” in next month’s general election.

In an unprecedented intervention into politics, which he describes as “amongst the most painful moments” of his career, Ephraim Mirvis says that “a new poison” has taken hold in Labour “sanctioned from the very top”.

In an article for The Timestoday, the Chief Rabbi says that the Labour leader’s claim to have dealt with all allegations of antisemitism is “a mendacious fiction” and the way that the party has handled the claims is “incompatible with the British values of which we are so proud”.

Labour, he says, can no longer claim to be the party of diversity, equality and anti-racism. Its record on antisemitism in opposition, he says, left him asking: “What should we expect of them in government?”

His comments come after Tony Blair, the last Labour leader to win an election, criticised Mr Corbyn’s manifesto as an unachievable wish-list and suggested that Britain should vote tactically for a hung parliament.

The former prime minister said that Mr Corbyn’s plans would “end badly”, refused to endorse him as fit to run the country and gave him little chance of a majority. He described Britain’s politics as “utterly dysfunctional” and said that only another referendum could end the Brexit impasse.

Allegations of antisemitism have plagued Labour and Mr Corbyn since he was elected to the leadership in September 2015. Thirteen Labour MPs have quit the party since 2017 at least partly in protest at its handling of antisemitism.

Mr Corbyn has insisted repeatedly that he is not antisemitic and the party has defended its processes for dealing with complaints.

In his article for The Times, however, Rabbi Mirvis says that British Jews are gripped by an understandable and justified anxiety. He writes: “How complicit in prejudice would a leader of Her Majesty’s opposition have to be to be considered unfit for office? Would associations with those who have incited hatred against Jews be enough? Would describing as ‘friends’ those who endorse the murder of Jews be enough? It seems not.

“It is not my place to tell any person how they should vote. I regret being in this situation at all. I simply pose the question: What will the result of this election say about the moral compass of our country? When December 12 arrives, I ask every person to vote with their conscience. Be in no doubt, the very soul of our nation is at stake.”

Rabbi Mirvis, who is the spiritual leader of the UK’s orthodox synagogues, has previously criticised Labour over antisemitism, saying in January that he was “still waiting” for the issue to be taken seriously by the party. His comments today, however, go far further and come at a critical ti in the election campaign.

Lord Sacks, his predecessor, has accused Mr Corbyn of being an antisemite and likened him to Enoch Powell — a comparison that Labour said was absurd and offensive. Rabbi Mirvis succeeded Lord Sacks in 2013.

The chief rabbi said he expected that he would now be “demonised by faceless social media trolls and accused of being partisan or acting in bad faith by those who still think of this as an orchestrated political smear”. But he said that he asked himself: “Should the victims of racism be silenced by the fear of yet further vilification?”

He wrote: “We sit powerless, watching with incredulity as supporters of the Labour leadership have hounded parliamentarians, party members and even staff out of the party for facing down anti-Jewish racism. Even as they received unspeakable threats against themselves and their families, the response of the Labour leadership was utterly inadequate.

“We have endured quibbling and prevarication over whether the party should adopt the most widely accepted definition of antisemitism in the world… Now, astonishingly we await the outcome of a formal investigation by the Equality and Human Rights Commission into whether discrimination by the party against Jews has become an institutional problem. And all of this whilst in opposition. What should we expect of them in government?”

A Labour spokeswoman said: “Jeremy Corbyn is a lifelong campaigner against antisemitism and has made absolutely clear it has no place in our Party and society and that no one who engages in it does so in his name.

“A Labour government will guarantee the security of the Jewish community, defend and support the Jewish way of life, and combat rising antisemitism in our country and across Europe. Our race and faith manifesto, launched today, sets out our policies to achieve this.”


Discover more from The Times

Download our app

It isn't enough. Simple evidence is going to have far more sway to me than any religious leader. That includes this Rabbi and the Archbishop who jumped on the bandwagon.

How can I believe what they say when they can't say what anti-Semitism needs to be acted on still.

 

[Lurker]

Torys and Labour are just as bad as each other. If people want to have REAL change then why doesnt everyone vote Lib Dems?

Because they have awful voting records, including but not limited to tripling student fees, which a page or two ago you were keen to have abolished.