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2023: General Discussion

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The B&Ms at Alton Towers can't be run below about 3°c (they might have even increased this minimum these days).

Unsure about other B&Ms at other parks but presumably you can uprate the various components to allow them to keep running in freezing conditions.
 
Ethan said:
What happened to towers becoming an all year round theme park
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The newer style Christmas event means the park is pretty much open for nearly 10 months of the year already. With Duel being kitted out, Gangsta Granny now existing and a new indoor attraction being built there could be potential for a decent all year round offering in the future.

If they did something sensible with the Around the World ride system and the cinema you could have them alongside Cbeebies, GG, the rest of Walliams World, Horizon, Hex, Duel, Spinball, Heave Ho, Marauders and Sea Life. Possibly even a Sub Terra replacement and Blade (or replacement) and there's a lineup you could cycle around maintenance that could offer a significant enough roster to have year round opening.

Not that I would advocate it until they sort the permanent lineup and opening hours issues of the main season first.
 
Alsty said:
The B&Ms at Alton Towers can't be run below about 3°c (they might have even increased this minimum these days).

Unsure about other B&Ms at other parks but presumably you can uprate the various components to allow them to keep running in freezing conditions.
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Thanks! Tried to find the place where I found the B&M -10C info but can't, so either I'm terrible at finding stuff or I made up the info in my head.
 
Great America run their Batman at -4c.

I think it can depend on the ride as much as anything. I'm not a scientist, but I assume rides that are absolutely hauling into the brakes can be run in colder temperatures than something that limps home.
 
But if those brakes are very cold they fail to function properly until warmed up.
Dipper at Blackpool comes to mind, sailing through the station offload right into the loading bay on opening weekend was a good reason for single trains, if I recall correctly, on a typical freezing, moist opening day some years ago.
 
I went on Air in roughly -2 degrees, Feb H/T 2012. There was about 8 rides in the entire park open, Air might have been the only coaster and it was on 1 train and kept e stopping. Marauders Mayhem dislocated your shoulders when you tried to spin it as the manual spin was frozen. My first mini meet, the lovely people made me come back and here I am nearly 11 years later.
 
Yeah I was gonna say, that 3 degree rule cannot be an absolute. Maybe they changed it in recent years but I remember the winter weekends back in the early 2000's, all three B&M's used to run regularly in freezing or just below freezing temperatures. So they can do it, but probably not the best for the longevity of parts, hence the possible 3 degree rule in place now.

I know apart from the lubricants used on the wheels, certain lubricants that lubricate the lift drive and other components as less effective at lower temperatures. Although all the modern lubricants B&M spec for lift drive lubricants are good to -7 degrees now, last time I looked there was about 7 approved lubricants they can choose from. Not sure if that was always the case and I am pretty sure the wheels will use a different one with different temp ranges. Polyurethane wheels are much more prone to cracking near freezing temperatures too, irrespective of the compound (softness) of the wheels used.
 
Doesn't matter if they are £2.50 or £250,000, I'm not sure a business case is there to expend all the energy costs along with the expenses to run at such a time of year be it direct or indirect.
 
Running rides in the winter is a solved problem, you just have to adjust your operating model and stick your hand in your pocket, in order to make it happen.

I think there's a conscious decision to grow the out of season stuff slowly and really ensure that there is the demand by providing 'something' at Christmas and through the winter months. With the extremes in weather that we're seeing, I am not convinced that there is a demand for anything close to a full park offering. Events like Adrenaline Week often had lukewarm attendance and can't have made much of a positive impact on the bottom line. With the added cost pressures, I just don't see that in the mix anytime soon.

That said, I think that there is a market for what they are currently doing - I just think it has a ceiling because there is so much competition. Not everyone can provide world class roller coasters ... A faux German market flogging a sausage on a stick and some pretty lights is a lower bar to reach.

All sorts of attractions have put on something Christmassy with huge demand and high margins, with things like light trails, Lanterns and the usual Christmas markets being highly profitable.

With Alton, I don't think that the location helps and I also think people's perception of Alton as a winter destination has a long way to go. It almost feels harder to drag people out to the park with all the rides closed than it does to get them to a stately home that is likely proffering a similar event.

There's always a clamour for growth, theme parks and everything that they contain are very expensive assets, so to have them dormant for large chunks of the year is sub-optimal in a lot of ways - but you can only squeeze so much juice out of the lemon.

As I've said before, I am cool with not visiting theme parks in the winter - that's as someone who is a huge fan of them. I like that the off season provides a forced break, of sorts - if I want a Christmas event, there are loads of comparable offerings nearby without schlepping all the way to Staffordshire.

For all the discussion about Winter Wonderland (of which I am currently on the Tube en route to), I am much happier dropping £100 or more on something festive that I can't do mid-June, than I would be going to Alton for their Christmas event.
 
Some parks in this country already run a significant ride lineup in the winter, so Towers opening the park almost fully at Christmas would not be a first for the UK by any means.

For instance, Legoland Windsor runs most of the park at Christmas, Paultons runs most of the park at Christmas, Chessington runs a fair percentage of the park at Christmas, Drayton Manor runs a fair percentage of the park at Christmas… there’s no reason why Alton Towers couldn’t provide a substantial ride offering at Christmas if they wanted to.

I actually think that a Christmas event with a greater ride offering could potentially be a huge success for the park if other things are on offer as well (e.g. the Christmas Markets and Lightopia that they do now).
 
Rick said:
@Matt N they're the same conceptually, but different logistically, no ?
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Yes, I digress there are differences.

Legoland, Chessington and Drayton are more centrally located than Alton and perhaps have a greater captive audience for this type of thing within the immediate area.

It is also worth me noting that all of the parks I named above have relatively family-orientated rides, for the most part, whereas Alton is more thrill-orientated. Some of the parks do open fairly sizeable rides, however (Paultons open Storm Chaser and their other big coasters, and Chessington opens Vampire).

Thrill rides could definitely open in winter, though, as parks abroad evidence. The likes of Europa Park and Phantasialand open their thrill rides in colder temperatures than the UK typically experiences in December, and their Christmas events seem to do fairly well.
 
Matt N said:
Some parks in this country already run a significant ride lineup in the winter, so Towers opening the park almost fully at Christmas would not be a first for the UK by any means.

For instance, Legoland Windsor runs most of the park at Christmas, Paultons runs most of the park at Christmas, Chessington runs a fair percentage of the park at Christmas, Drayton Manor runs a fair percentage of the park at Christmas… there’s no reason why Alton Towers couldn’t provide a substantial ride offering at Christmas if they wanted to.

I actually think that a Christmas event with a greater ride offering could potentially be a huge success for the park if other things are on offer as well (e.g. the Christmas Markets and Lightopia that they do now).
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At the moment Towers is heavily dependant on its coasters to fill the ride line-up and coasters need some work for cold running and that only takes you so far. When you think about it the only none coaster/ water rides not operating for Christmas this year (that are not shut down for redevelopment) where Blade, sky ride, get set go and the retro squad. Get set go and sky ride can’t operate due to low light levels.

Unlike those other parks Towers lacks support and indoor attractions that can operate in low temperatures. Until they sort that out their park offering is always going to be limited at Christmas.
 
Matt N said:
Yes, I digress there are differences.

Legoland, Chessington and Drayton are more centrally located than Alton and perhaps have a greater captive audience for this type of thing within the immediate area.

It is also worth me noting that all of the parks I named above have relatively family-orientated rides, for the most part, whereas Alton is more thrill-orientated. Some of the parks do open fairly sizeable rides, however (Paultons open Storm Chaser and their other big coasters, and Chessington opens Vampire).

Thrill rides could definitely open in winter, though, as parks abroad evidence. The likes of Europa Park and Phantasialand open their thrill rides in colder temperatures than the UK typically experiences in December, and their Christmas events seem to do fairly well.
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Due to the sheer number of big thrill rides that require most of the closed season for annual maintenance, inspection and repairs, I don't think Towers can ever become a 365 day a year (or near 365) resort unless they move to scheduled year-round maintenance - having rides closed at fixed points throughout the year. And to do that would require far more staff.
 
Matt N said:
Some parks in this country already run a significant ride lineup in the winter, so Towers opening the park almost fully at Christmas would not be a first for the UK by any means.

For instance, Legoland Windsor runs most of the park at Christmas, Paultons runs most of the park at Christmas, Chessington runs a fair percentage of the park at Christmas, Drayton Manor runs a fair percentage of the park at Christmas… there’s no reason why Alton Towers couldn’t provide a substantial ride offering at Christmas if they wanted to.

I actually think that a Christmas event with a greater ride offering could potentially be a huge success for the park if other things are on offer as well (e.g. the Christmas Markets and Lightopia that they do now).
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If Chessington running 7 rides is running a fair percentage of the park, then yes, it runs a fair percentage of the park. Alton's Christmas lineup is probably 3rd best, behind Legoland and Paulton's.
 
Danscott22 said:
If Chessington running 7 rides is running a fair percentage of the park, then yes, it runs a fair percentage of the park. Alton's Christmas lineup is probably 3rd best, behind Legoland and Paulton's.
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Ah, sorry… I thought Chessington typically ran more than that. I thought that Drayton ran quite a large percentage of its lineup too.
 
Rick said:
Running rides in the winter is a solved problem, you just have to adjust your operating model and stick your hand in your pocket, in order to make it happen.

I think there's a conscious decision to grow the out of season stuff slowly and really ensure that there is the demand by providing 'something' at Christmas and through the winter months. With the extremes in weather that we're seeing, I am not convinced that there is a demand for anything close to a full park offering. Events like Adrenaline Week often had lukewarm attendance and can't have made much of a positive impact on the bottom line. With the added cost pressures, I just don't see that in the mix anytime soon.

That said, I think that there is a market for what they are currently doing - I just think it has a ceiling because there is so much competition. Not everyone can provide world class roller coasters ... A faux German market flogging a sausage on a stick and some pretty lights is a lower bar to reach.

All sorts of attractions have put on something Christmassy with huge demand and high margins, with things like light trails, Lanterns and the usual Christmas markets being highly profitable.

With Alton, I don't think that the location helps and I also think people's perception of Alton as a winter destination has a long way to go. It almost feels harder to drag people out to the park with all the rides closed than it does to get them to a stately home that is likely proffering a similar event.

There's always a clamour for growth, theme parks and everything that they contain are very expensive assets, so to have them dormant for large chunks of the year is sub-optimal in a lot of ways - but you can only squeeze so much juice out of the lemon.

As I've said before, I am cool with not visiting theme parks in the winter - that's as someone who is a huge fan of them. I like that the off season provides a forced break, of sorts - if I want a Christmas event, there are loads of comparable offerings nearby without schlepping all the way to Staffordshire.

For all the discussion about Winter Wonderland (of which I am currently on the Tube en route to), I am much happier dropping £100 or more on something festive that I can't do mid-June, than I would be going to Alton for their Christmas event.
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So I get my first coaster pangs of the closed season, to discover our Rick is on the tube to Winter Wonderland...
Green eyed thoosie alert.
Hope you slip on a half eaten Magnum.
 
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