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[202X] Project Horizon (SW9?): Planning Approved

tayspru said:
Delaying the project is the correct outcome regardless of the reasoning (which we’ll never find out)

Outside of CBeebies land, Towers currently has operating :

- 9 coasters
- 3 dark rides
- 2 water rides
- 1 family thrill flat ride
- 4 family flat rides
- 0 (!) thrill flat rides
- 0 permanent shows

Those ratios are awful and the park is a long way off needing a new coaster with such glaring holes in the current lineup
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I’d argue that the only massively glaring gap there in terms of rides (shows come out of a different budget, to my knowledge, so probably wouldn’t affect whether or not they proceed with Horizon) is family thrill and thrill flat rides, and it would appear that at least some effort is being made to resolve this in the short to medium term. We know that Project Ocean is replacing Ripsaw in 2025 at the latest, and Bianca has also allegedly alluded to the purchase of 3 or 4 permanent flat rides. I would not be surprised if some of these other flat rides also materialise in 2025, as X-Sector and Dark Forest both fall within GDO development areas. Flat rides could quite easily be snuck into these areas with the rights the park is given.

Once Hex reopens, which should hopefully be soon, the park will have 4 dark rides. Very few parks other than Disney and Universal parks have much more than this, and parks that do often have fewer coasters than Alton.

Admittedly, another water ride might be nice at some stage, but they have 2, and in a country with an often dreary climate like Britain, I don’t think water rides are of utmost priority.

The other thing that I’d say about Horizon is that while it’s easy to dismiss it as “just another coaster”, I think it could still enhance numerous areas in many ways. These include:
  • It will add another indoor ride. Building an indoor coaster will still bolster that indoor attraction total for those days with worse weather.
  • It could add another ride for the family or family thrill demographic. Based on the building stats and info we have, I have a strong suspicion that it may not be a hardcore thrill coaster. That building is quite small for an indoor coaster, very little digging is to be done, and John Burton has described Project Horizon as “whimsical”. That to me suggests that it may appeal to a broader demographic. The highest I’d probably expect the height restriction to be for it is 1.2m, and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if it was lower.
  • I also think that it could well be a dark ride/coaster hybrid of sorts, which would be unique to both Alton Towers and the wider UK. I reiterate the smaller building size; I think this could be indicative of a coaster with some dark ride sections and some coaster sections rather than a flat out “cred in a shed”, as dark ride scenes and smaller coaster sections may require less space. I would also point out some other elements of the specific building specification; as an example, it was noted when the application came out that the building had 3 doors into it, possibly hinting towards some kind of pre-show element. This could maybe hint that the ride may not operate like a conventional coaster.
With all this in mind, I still personally feel that Project Horizon will bolster valuable areas in Alton Towers’ lineup, and I do feel that dismissing it as “just another coaster” is a little rash.
 
Literally nobody is saying it would be a bad investment, it just isn’t a priority as you pointed out. If 4/5 flats materialise over the next two years? Then we can talk about a new coaster. But for now, the money would be better spent elsewhere

On the point of your distinction between ride and show budgets, that fundamentally doesn’t matter to a guest on the day. A theme park is about so much more than hitting ride after ride, and a park the size of Alton should have permanent entertainment offerings regardless of where the money is coming from. But that would be hard to comprehend for someone who views Towers as a place to do rides and nothing else
 
If we're suggesting that timeframes suggested in the planning documents were never actually planned or accurate, then we may as well disregard the fact that a rollercoaster was mentioned probably once or whatever in the docs. With the ride basically being inside a box and time passing since approval IF this thing indeed ever gets built, who's to say that it was ever intended to be a coaster - and if it was - who's to say they havn't changed their minds in the meantime and they now want to build a different kind of ride? Noise levels for a different ride aren't going to be any higher than a coaster in a box, and the appearance of the box isn't going to change either. That's if we're not really taking information in the planning docs seriously anymore, obviously.
 
tayspru said:
On the point of your distinction between ride and show budgets, that fundamentally doesn’t matter to a guest on the day. A theme park is about so much more than hitting ride after ride, and a park the size of Alton should have permanent entertainment offerings regardless of where the money is coming from. But that would be hard to comprehend for someone who views Towers as a place to do rides and nothing else
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I’m not saying it does, but my point was more that the park could easily put in a new permanent show or two alongside Project Horizon if they wanted to. As shows come from a separate budget, it’s not a case of it being one or the other unlike with a ride.

If I’m being totally honest, theme park shows aren’t really my thing, but I do agree that the park could probably do with another show or two for those who do like them. At very least, something like the 4D cinema reopening would be a good idea. I think the park does underutilise some of its indoor and undercover space at present, and some of this, such as the 4D cinema space and the old pirate show space, could be used to facilitate new entertainment offerings. But I think shows coming from a different budget and them being pretty low-cost compared to new ride investments would mean that new entertainment would not necessarily need to come at the expense of Project Horizon.

On a side note, though, I thought that the stage on the Towers Street lawns, whose future has been secured until 2029 if I’m remembering a post in a different thread correctly, ran daily shows even outside of event seasons? I thought that stage did shows with Darwin the Dodo and the other Sir Algenon characters?
 
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BarryZola said:
If we're suggesting that timeframes suggested in the planning documents were never actually planned or accurate, then we may as well disregard the fact that a rollercoaster was mentioned probably once or whatever in the docs. With the ride basically being inside a box and time passing since approval IF this thing indeed ever gets built, who's to say that it was ever intended to be a coaster - and if it was - who's to say they havn't changed their minds in the meantime and they now want to build a different kind of ride? Noise levels for a different ride aren't going to be any higher than a coaster in a box, and the appearance of the box isn't going to change either. That's if we're not really taking information in the planning docs seriously anymore, obviously.
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A next-gen Flying Theatre would be a great fit for the building …
 
The park applied and got permission to move the stage from the lawns to Fountain Square, presumably to centre Christmas/Feb Half Term events in that area of the park. With most (if not all) of Walliams and Hex being able to run, the only thing you're really lacking for a surrounding offering is a coaster and you'd assume 13 and Rita would be out of action so this development is the only real option to tick that box.

The park wanted planning permission for this Fountain Square stage until 2029, which doesn't rule out it opening later than we expect, but why bother trying for planning permission to move the stage now if you had no intention of creating a fully formed event around it until the latter portion of that time - which, thanks to the application needing to be tweaked to fit current laws and guidelines, you now don't even have?

Personally I still think we'll see work start in September of this year, fittingly just after we're anticipating Ocean being completed, with the aim being an opening date of the first day of the 2026 season.
 
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Dobba said:
The park applied and got permission to move the stage from the lawns to Fountain Square, presumably to centre Christmas/Feb Half Term events in that area of the park. With most (if not all) of Walliams and Hex being able to run, the only thing you're really lacking for a surrounding offering is a coaster and you'd assume 13 and Rita would be out of action so this development is the only real option to tick that box.

The park wanted planning permission for this Fountain Square stage until 2029, which doesn't rule out it opening later than we expect, but why bother trying for planning permission to move the stage now if you had no intention of creating a fully formed event around it until the latter portion of that time - which, thanks to the application needing to be tweaked to fit current laws and guidelines, you now don't even have?

Personally I still think we'll see work start in September of this year, fittingly just after we're anticipating Ocean being completed, with the aim being an opening date of the first day of the 2026 season.
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They already had permission to put the stage on the lawns in Summer and in Fountain square in Winter, however they never ended up actually moving it to the winter location.

That recent application was to extend the permission they already had for longer. Seems the council weren’t too keen and have only given them an extension until Feb 2026 on the basis that Alton Towers stated they were looking into longer term solutions for shows. Hopefully that is the case and a permanent indoor show venue or two are created.
 
Controversially I'd quite like them to leave the lawns alone. It's a pleasant green area and I prefer it that way. The Fountain Square area and general area behind the Towers has felt very lame in recent years, decades even. From the Funfair days, to Festival Park and Talbot Street days, it's the truly original part of Alton Towers as a theme park and has always been a very pretty area.

Hex has spent much of the last few years closed, Dark Forest is 2 coasters and big fence, the Dungeon looks stupid and Walliams World is a small and run down back street of an area.

A new flat and remodeling of Dark Forest, a Hex return, a stage, a family boat ride, Horizon, a proper theme for Walliams World and an opening up of the area around coaster corner and that's a pleasant busy area once again. A sit down and quick service restaurant with a Sky Ride link to Forbidden Valley and that sounds like a high quality corner of the park once again. At the moment it's like they've hidden all the stuff they don't want you to see behind the Towers.
 
In terms of entertainment, they could reopen the 4D theatre building and use it for indoor entertainment, then have a permanent outdoor stage (perhaps with a canopy) in Fountain Square (Festival Park Dome 2.0). Ideally, they could do it with a newly built indoor theatre/arena, and in the long term, it would be good to see more of a focus on entertainment as part of the Alton Towers experience.

Sadly, the sharp decline in entertainment since the '80s/'90s has made the British public almost conditioned that a theme park trip in the UK is about rushing to thrash out as many rides as possible before 4 pm. We're incredibly far behind other parks in Europe and worldwide.

Towers have had good intentions in recent years with outdoor entertainment and extending the lawns stage. However, we're a country with miserable weather most of the year, and the park is crying out for proper indoor entertainment and shows.
 
James said:
In terms of entertainment, they could reopen the 4D theatre building and use it for indoor entertainment, then have a permanent outdoor stage (perhaps with a canopy) in Fountain Square (Festival Park Dome 2.0). Ideally, they could do it with a newly built indoor theatre/arena, and in the long term, it would be good to see more of a focus on entertainment as part of the Alton Towers experience.

Sadly, the sharp decline in entertainment since the '80s/'90s has made the British public almost conditioned that a theme park trip in the UK is about rushing to thrash out as many rides as possible before 4 pm. We're incredibly far behind other parks in Europe and worldwide.

Towers have had good intentions in recent years with outdoor entertainment and extending the lawns stage. However, we're a country with miserable weather most of the year, and the park is crying out for proper indoor entertainment and shows.
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Tbf with the typically lacklustre opening hours, poor ride availability and multi-hour queues you can't really blame people for prioritising rides over entertainment.

Just watched a vlog of Europa (as i've never been) and it's another world in comparison. I think people would be more willing to deviate if they knew things would be working and you'd likely only be queuing for 30 minutes for the big rides.

CWOA is small enough that catching the entertainment doesn't eat into your day but AT you're just as likely stuck in a 90 minute queue and a 15 minute walk away.

Don't get me wrong, i love AT and it's a good use of the lawns having a stage but the park layout isn't particularly accommodating and it's not something they're associated with outside of the fireworks, nor is it likely to be something they're going to dedicate long term budgets to imo.

Do agree that indoor/covered options would be more attractive.

We'll always have Henry's Parade...

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Matt N said:
The noise assessment from the planning documents said that the construction period was to start in Spring 2023 and would last 78 weeks, as pointed out by @Squiggs earlier in the thread:

This would infer that at some point, construction was intended to start in 2023 and a 2025 opening was originally planned. When and why that changed, we don’t know, but based on what @Squiggs posted above, that seems to have been the original intent.

I do hope that Horizon isn’t delayed beyond 2026, though. I’m aware that there are other things people would like to see done, and I get that, but 2026 will already represent 8 years since the park’s last major new ride investment in Wicker Man. I’m aware that they’ve done other stuff in that timeframe, but a lot of what they’ve done is ultimately refurbishment of existing rides. I fear that if they go much longer without a major new ride investment, then visitor numbers might stagnate and people might start to view the existing ride lineup as stale, similar to what happened to Thorpe Park in the late 2010s or so.
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I think though that the new Huss Topspin will buy them some time in that respect, when it opens it will instantly be the UK’s most significant flat ride I think and it’s probably going to be marketed as one of the major attractions at the park. I think it counts as a major new ride investment and hopefully it will really capture the imagination of the GP as it could well be a visually spectacular experience if they theme it well.
 
If it was a 2023 start for 2025 open, then it's looking at least 2027 I would imagine now. I imagine they've reviewed the park and realised it wasn't urgent if 2025 was the plan.
 
How much construction would we see though? The location is not exactly visible, and until a building goes vertical, it will be very hard to see what is going on.
 
immelmanloop said:
How much construction would we see though? The location is not exactly visible, and until a building goes vertical, it will be very hard to see what is going on.
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I don’t know that there would be anything massively obvious but people would be keeping a beady eye out on the rear access gate opposite the Chained Oak and listening for piling equipment etc I guess. Plus you can’t exactly hide a crane
 
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