speedy
TS Member
Start by following the advice yourself then!
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ℹ️ Heads up...
This is a popular topic that is fast moving Guest - before posting, please ensure that you check out the first post in the topic for a quick reminder of guidelines, and importantly a summary of the known facts and information so far. Thanks.
Coronavirus
- Thread starter Jb85
- Start date
Rick
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Crux
Buy one and then go back in with your face covered and nick the rest.
bluesonichd
TS Member
pluk
TS Member
For the avoidance of doubt, the law as introduced last Thursday has not been amended. ACPO guidelines (as we all still call them, even though the name of the body has changed to NPCC) do not superseded the law. Lots of areas of law have specific ACPO guidance which is just that, guidance for how an area of law will be implemented from the sterile words on a page to the messier reality of the real world, and they do help deliver some national consistency between forces. An area where this is hugely prevalent for example is unauthorised encampments ('travellers'), where the ACPO guidelines vary hugely from the letter of the law but are accepted as a fairer way to deal with an often persecuted section of society, but following these guidelines often leads to the 'police ain't doin nuffink' bleatings from the less educated. Those guidelines make interesting reading if you are that way inclined.
Guidelines are just that though, and the law is the law. The guidelines can be moved away from by officers with justification as long as the law is followed, and it is often necessary and justifiable to do so, although following the guidelines as close as is possible will always be the preference.
The staring point for this offence is paragraph 1
6.—
1) During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.
And really, that is the end of it too. What follows are merely a non-exhaustive (a reasonable excuse includes) examples of what are reasonable excuses, and the use of the word "NEED" puts an element of necessity into that excuse.
The law as written does not allow for the driving to another place to take exercise; it is something that can be done from the doorstep so the necessity to travel elsewhere simply does not exist in almost any circumstance.
The reality is, as I've already said previously, any enforcement of this is way down the line after Engage, Explain and Encourage has been exhausted. It's only where the public chose not to engage or accept that advice that enforcement will be issued in the way of tickets/summons/arrest as necessary. That has been the stance of my force, and other forces I know, from the off.
In short, you'd have to be spectacularly stupid to talk or act your way to prosecution. But to contravene the law still makes you criminal, you are just getting away with it, in the same way if you burgle a house knowing you won't get caught you are not any less of a burglar. Why would getting away with breaking this law make you feel good when it is there to protect you?
*NB, I don't know what Derbyshire have been up to, who seem to be the focus of complaints. The BBC article previously linked to does give some decent context to their actions though, which don't seem so unreasonable when both sides of the story are known.
The law wording, if you want it...
Guidelines are just that though, and the law is the law. The guidelines can be moved away from by officers with justification as long as the law is followed, and it is often necessary and justifiable to do so, although following the guidelines as close as is possible will always be the preference.
The staring point for this offence is paragraph 1
6.—
1) During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.
And really, that is the end of it too. What follows are merely a non-exhaustive (a reasonable excuse includes) examples of what are reasonable excuses, and the use of the word "NEED" puts an element of necessity into that excuse.
The law as written does not allow for the driving to another place to take exercise; it is something that can be done from the doorstep so the necessity to travel elsewhere simply does not exist in almost any circumstance.
The reality is, as I've already said previously, any enforcement of this is way down the line after Engage, Explain and Encourage has been exhausted. It's only where the public chose not to engage or accept that advice that enforcement will be issued in the way of tickets/summons/arrest as necessary. That has been the stance of my force, and other forces I know, from the off.
In short, you'd have to be spectacularly stupid to talk or act your way to prosecution. But to contravene the law still makes you criminal, you are just getting away with it, in the same way if you burgle a house knowing you won't get caught you are not any less of a burglar. Why would getting away with breaking this law make you feel good when it is there to protect you?
*NB, I don't know what Derbyshire have been up to, who seem to be the focus of complaints. The BBC article previously linked to does give some decent context to their actions though, which don't seem so unreasonable when both sides of the story are known.
The law wording, if you want it...
6.—
1) During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.
2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need—
(a)to obtain basic necessities, including food and medical supplies for those in the same household (including any pets or animals in the household) or for vulnerable persons and supplies for the essential upkeep, maintenance and functioning of the household, or the household of a vulnerable person, or to obtain money, including from any business listed in Part 3 of Schedule 2;
(b)to take exercise either alone or with other members of their household;
(c)to seek medical assistance, including to access any of the services referred to in paragraph 37 or 38 of Schedule 2;
(d)to provide care or assistance, including relevant personal care within the meaning of paragraph 7(3B) of Schedule 4 to the Safeguarding of Vulnerable Groups Act 2006, to a vulnerable person, or to provide emergency assistance;
(e)to donate blood;
(f)to travel for the purposes of work or to provide voluntary or charitable services, where it is not reasonably possible for that person to work, or to provide those services, from the place where they are living;
(g)to attend a funeral of—
(i)a member of the person’s household,
(ii)a close family member, or
(iii)if no-one within sub-paragraphs (i) or (ii) are attending, a friend;
(h)to fulfil a legal obligation, including attending court or satisfying bail conditions, or to participate in legal proceedings;
(i)to access critical public services, including—
(i)childcare or educational facilities (where these are still available to a child in relation to whom that person is the parent, or has parental responsibility for, or care of the child);
(ii)social services;
(iii)services provided by the Department of Work and Pensions;
(iv)services provided to victims (such as victims of crime);
(j)in relation to children who do not live in the same household as their parents, or one of their parents, to continue existing arrangements for access to, and contact between, parents and children, and for the purposes of this paragraph, “parent” includes a person who is not a parent of the child, but who has parental responsibility for, or who has care of, the child;
(k)in the case of a minister of religion or worship leader, to go to their place of worship;
(l)to move house where reasonably necessary;
(m)to avoid injury or illness or to escape a risk of harm.
1) During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.
2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need—
(a)to obtain basic necessities, including food and medical supplies for those in the same household (including any pets or animals in the household) or for vulnerable persons and supplies for the essential upkeep, maintenance and functioning of the household, or the household of a vulnerable person, or to obtain money, including from any business listed in Part 3 of Schedule 2;
(b)to take exercise either alone or with other members of their household;
(c)to seek medical assistance, including to access any of the services referred to in paragraph 37 or 38 of Schedule 2;
(d)to provide care or assistance, including relevant personal care within the meaning of paragraph 7(3B) of Schedule 4 to the Safeguarding of Vulnerable Groups Act 2006, to a vulnerable person, or to provide emergency assistance;
(e)to donate blood;
(f)to travel for the purposes of work or to provide voluntary or charitable services, where it is not reasonably possible for that person to work, or to provide those services, from the place where they are living;
(g)to attend a funeral of—
(i)a member of the person’s household,
(ii)a close family member, or
(iii)if no-one within sub-paragraphs (i) or (ii) are attending, a friend;
(h)to fulfil a legal obligation, including attending court or satisfying bail conditions, or to participate in legal proceedings;
(i)to access critical public services, including—
(i)childcare or educational facilities (where these are still available to a child in relation to whom that person is the parent, or has parental responsibility for, or care of the child);
(ii)social services;
(iii)services provided by the Department of Work and Pensions;
(iv)services provided to victims (such as victims of crime);
(j)in relation to children who do not live in the same household as their parents, or one of their parents, to continue existing arrangements for access to, and contact between, parents and children, and for the purposes of this paragraph, “parent” includes a person who is not a parent of the child, but who has parental responsibility for, or who has care of, the child;
(k)in the case of a minister of religion or worship leader, to go to their place of worship;
(l)to move house where reasonably necessary;
(m)to avoid injury or illness or to escape a risk of harm.
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bluesonichd
TS Member
and yet the Npcc say travel may be necessary to take exercise and they dont want to sanction people for doing so
https://www.college.police.uk/Docum...nse-to-Coronavirus-Government-Legislation.pdf
https://www.college.police.uk/Docum...nse-to-Coronavirus-Government-Legislation.pdf
pluk
TS Member
and yet the Npcc say travel may be necessary to take exercise and they dont want to sanction people for doing so
https://www.college.police.uk/Docum...nse-to-Coronavirus-Government-Legislation.pdf
"MAY NEED"
Need = Necessity. Each incident is on it's own merit, if you do need to travel the circumstances should be clear to the officer so there would be no offence or confusion. If the police don't agree with your necessity and do ticket you and you believe you can demonstrate that necessity it would be off to court for a magistrate to decide. As with all law.
Also, that is directly relating to sanctions, ie ticketing etc. Again and again I've said that is not the starting point, with plenty of explaining and encouraging coming first. The point from my previous post remains though, the law would have been broken, you'll just be getting away with it. Why is that better? Why would that be a good thing in your book?
Quick genuine question - if you want to drive to exercise, how far we talking?
DiogoJ42
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- The Metropolitan Line
Just in case anyone missed it, Wales has already fallen to goatkind.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-wales-52109712/coronavirus-goats-take-over-deserted-llandudno
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-wales-52109712/coronavirus-goats-take-over-deserted-llandudno
bluesonichd
TS Member
I would say for me a least a 6 mile radius would get me to some nice walks and stop me walking the streets, and away from people.
then again after watching todays news briefing thingie its utterly depressing and I dont want to go out.
but thats not the point. if I did decide to go out I dont want to get fined for doing so.
pluk
TS Member
It's not about being 'allowed' to drive, that isn't mentioned. It's about the act you are completing and whether that is an example given. Again, the list is not exhaustive and any incident would be on its own merit.
6(2)a - In driving you are completing that thing. Plane, train or automobile, it doesn't matter if you are completing that thing and the travel is part of that thing. If you are driving but not between the points to complete that thing you are probably committing the offence.
6(2)b - you are patently not doing that thing while driving, and as exercise can be completed from the door driving is not something you need to do in almost any scenario. Driving is not exercise.
Islander
TS Member
A while back there was one or two reports of people's dogs catching the virus. However this recent study shows that it's it's actually cats and ferrets which are most at risk of catching it, and not only that, they can also transmit it.
https://t.co/cBhw36ysIs?amp=1
https://t.co/cBhw36ysIs?amp=1
bluesonichd
TS Member
Hope that’s not true. My cats are the only thing that keep me company
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BarryZola
TS Member
Just think, when the lock down is relaxed to some degree and social distancing is no longer as strongly advised, there's going to be so much sport EVERYWHERE and all at the same time that you're not going to be able to move for sport, right in your face everytime you turn around. SPORT SPORT SPORT!! All the sport squeezed right into small spaces of time.
Just like this:
Just like this:
Matt N
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Mako (SeaWorld Orlando)
I know this isn't to do with sport, but it's of a similar sort of nature; as much as businesses are struggling now due to lockdown, I could see a scenario where the rest of this year is very, very good for business due to people wanting to blow off steam and go outside again. If the businesses really boom in the latter half of this year, then it could help to offset the losses from the first half of the year; some predictions suggest that the economy might return to growth by Q4 of 2020, and most predict a return to growth by 2021.
What are you guys' thoughts?
What are you guys' thoughts?
Rick
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Crux
It depends how much pent up cash there is vs. how many people and businesses have their income decimated come the end of this. The balance is largely going to be decided by the duration of the lockdown and the support given to individuals and organisations whilst it goes on.
We have been lucky in that we have saved quite a lot during this time - both having stable jobs that we can largely do from home. Neither of the cars have really gone anywhere, we've eaten out/had takeaways less, not been to the pub or cinema, etc.
That said, it's not really in our nature to watch the nest egg grow and have a huge blow out at the end of it. If we were to do anything, we'd have a far more audacious, perhaps even decadent, foreign holiday than we perhaps might have done otherwise.
Matt N
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Mako (SeaWorld Orlando)
Hopefully there will be more of the former, because the government have announced many new measures in order to try and reduce the amount of the latter (e.g. suspension of business rates, government paying 80% of wages, benefits for self-employed etc.)