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Dreamland Margate: General Discussion
jon81uk
TS Member
How many tourists come to see a concert at Dreamland vs how many come for the rollercoaster? I would expect the concerts drive more people to the area in general. But yes, Dreamland as an amusement park is another small thing to add to the list when visiting seaside towns, but I don't think there is a huge amount otherwise to do anyway?
Exactly! Half the charm of this place as a venue is its vintage features, they could use the scenic to make extra profit while also making it a really cool place to host a concert. Clearly that is not something they seem remotely interested in doing, and even seem to understand the potential of.
venny
TS Member
There’d be nothing to stop a contractual relationship obliging the current owners to operate the coaster as part of the original transfer of ownership (assuming ownership has transferred). If that didn’t happen that seems odd, or maybe (generously described as) an oversight.
As the helpful insight from the local resident, attests, there’s going to be some bad feelings generated locally by this and there are certain levers that can be pulled to make the venue’s operations more challenging. If that happens, they have perhaps brought it upon themselves.
Contractual obligation or otherwise, there’s surely a moral obligation to keep the ride operational.
As the helpful insight from the local resident, attests, there’s going to be some bad feelings generated locally by this and there are certain levers that can be pulled to make the venue’s operations more challenging. If that happens, they have perhaps brought it upon themselves.
Contractual obligation or otherwise, there’s surely a moral obligation to keep the ride operational.
Matt N
TS Member
What moral obligation is there? I get that the ride is iconic, but if it’s getting old and costly to maintain and the owners feel it would be better to put business resources into other things, then I think a case can be made that the ride’s time has come.
This is why, perhaps controversially, I’m vehemently against listing roller coasters in the manner done for various rides at Blackpool Pleasure Beach and Scenic. It’s a nice idea in concept, but listing does not force the park to operate a ride and if a park can’t or doesn’t want to operate a ride, or the ride has become financially infeasible or infeasible in any other way to operate, listing forces it to sit there like a giant white elephant being unused and not doing anybody much good. I also feel it forces parks to live in the past when that might not necessarily be the best course of action.
owenstreet7
TS Member
It is good listing a ride when it can be preserved but when it comes to the point that it can't, surely it should be reviewed so it doesn't go to waste.
With Big Dipper, if they got to a scenario where the ride cannot reasonably operate, they could keep the structure where the first drop is and that's it. At the moment, it's worrying that Grand National might end up going the same way as Scenic Railway.
The concern on Blackpool and Scenic Railway is that space, maintenance, time, money and resources would be wasted on maintaining a ride that may not operate.
I think the moral obligation is based on a few things.
Firstly, most of the money that went into re-building Dreamland was public money from sources such as Thanet District Council, The Heritage Lottery Fund, The Coastal Communities Fund and Sea Change.
Secondly, Dreamland was compulsory purchased from the previous owner for the basis of opening a heritage amusement park.
Thirdly, about 13,000 people supported the Save Dreamland Campaign. Without all these volunteers putting their time in, there'd be no Dreamland.
Personally I'm quite left wing and I'm happy to have higher taxes and better public services. But it's understandable that the public want to know what they're getting for their money, and that it's being used for the public good. At a time when so many public services are really stretched, there needs to be confidence that public money will be spent wisely.
We know from Freedom of Information requests that various groups put in bids to run Dreamland including the Stockvale Group (who run Adventure Island) and Mellors (who now run Fantasy Island and Lightwater Valley). Instead the council chose a group of investment bankers. Understandably some people are questioning why that was.
It also seems reasonable that people want to understand how a roller coaster that was effectively less than 10 years old crashed.
Good rhyming slang there.
Scenic Railway I'd one of the main draws tp Margate if it was marketed properly as the UKs oldest Coaster it would get more attention.
Hoping some form of injuction to make sure for sure they have done everything they can. Because at the moment seems like it Live Nation sole decision
Hoping some form of injuction to make sure for sure they have done everything they can. Because at the moment seems like it Live Nation sole decision
SuperMuscleMan
TS Member
Unfortunately and I'll probably be told by @GooseOnTheLoose it's not the case but this labour council don't really have great common sense. As was proved when last year they were trying to fine people for freedom of speech (or swearing). Yet labour councillors behaved in a very poor manner in the chamber. https://www.kentonline.co.uk/thanet/news/council-s-swearing-ban-on-hold-once-again-329426/
The scenic did lift the sprits of the local community and I recall alot of interest and possibility when it was going to be a vintage park. Margate was on the up - with the Turner round the corner. In addition the redevelopment of the massive blight on the sea front was an exciting time.
It's surprising to me that this park doesn't do well when flamingo park on Hastings sea front (in the next county) is investing. (it has the 2018 Zamperla Wild Mouse from Dreamland called Pinball X which was installed for the 2021 season)
It has massive investments in the planning stages that include the world class crazy golf course and entertainment complex next door (it blends seamlessly between the two sites).
Sidenote: location is key as Owens went bankrupt after millions of private and public money was invested and disappeared in the last few years.
To me it seems that Dreamland was only intended to be a music venue and the owners have no intention of running the amusement park side of things.
If you look at music venues South East of London there are very few.
With only outdoor concert spaces at places like the HOP Gardens and Leeds Castle (Kent). These being the larger venues for older generations of music. Iit's not really untill you get to Brighton where concerts are regularly held indoors.
Live Nation were very savvy getting this site.
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I still have a spare spellchecker and a bucket of punctuation if anyone wants to borrow some.
On topic, today's Mail has virtually a full page on Margate, Tracy Emin and Madonna almost resident, massive increase in trendy London commuters, investment, the Tate, tourist increase, boutique hotels, and a brief mention of it being most famous for Dreamland.
No mention of a dead coaster.
With all of that, it sounds like really poor management of a great local public asset to me.
Fiver a ride every weekend, and all the school holidays...that is what it should have been.
Repairs would have been paid for by now.
Not rocket science.
Bring on the big petition.
On topic, today's Mail has virtually a full page on Margate, Tracy Emin and Madonna almost resident, massive increase in trendy London commuters, investment, the Tate, tourist increase, boutique hotels, and a brief mention of it being most famous for Dreamland.
No mention of a dead coaster.
With all of that, it sounds like really poor management of a great local public asset to me.
Fiver a ride every weekend, and all the school holidays...that is what it should have been.
Repairs would have been paid for by now.
Not rocket science.
Bring on the big petition.
Benzin
TS Member
Didn't realise Live Nation owned the park currently. Kinda makes sense now.
Did amuse there was a quote almost complaining that "we'd have to inspect the ride everyday", like that action isn't done at literally every other theme park worldwide and done in very focused fashion on every wooden coaster in the world.
Did amuse there was a quote almost complaining that "we'd have to inspect the ride everyday", like that action isn't done at literally every other theme park worldwide and done in very focused fashion on every wooden coaster in the world.
GooseOnTheLoose
TS Member
Whilst I share your romantic notion of a "moral obligation" derived from the public purse, I am afraid that concept holds very little weight in a boardroom or an insolvency hearing.
The Heritage Lottery Fund and Coastal Communities Fund provided capital investment. They paid for the timber, the nails, and the restoration labour. They did not provide revenue funding. Once the ribbon is cut, the public good argument usually evaporates in the face of the P&L sheet. If the ride costs more to operate, insure, and staff than it generates in ticket sales, no amount of moral obligation will keep the brakes off.
Local Councils are notoriously risk averse and often commercially illiterate. They likely chose the investment bankers / Live Nation route because they presented the most secure financial package on paper (and the promise of high yield concert revenue), rather than the group with the best track record of running a seaside amusement park. It is a classic procurement failure: prioritising the balance sheet over the product.
It wasn't "effectively less than 10 years old". It was a 100 year-old design, rebuilt with new wood, but still relying on 100 year old technology. It uses friction brakes operated manually by a human being riding on the train. When you rely on a brakeman to physically stop a multi-tonne train using a lever, "human error" is a feature, not a bug. It doesn't matter how fresh the wood is, the system is still an antique.
Please stop using legal terms like "injunction" as if they are magic wands that can force a company to do what you want.
An injunction is typically a court order to stop someone from doing something (like knocking the ride down). It is very rarely used to force specific performance of a commercial action, especially one that loses money.
You cannot go to the High Court and say, "My Lord, please force Live Nation to run this rollercoaster because it is a main draw." The judge would laugh you out of the building. As the operator, it is Live Nation's sole decision. They have a duty to preserve the structure (due to Listing), but they have absolutely no duty to let you ride it.
SuperMuscleMan
TS Member
While the Turner was a good asset it's failed to really connect with the local population.
Alot of money was diverted into the seafront but like alot of seaside towns step one street back and it's very poor and a dump.
(Often cited as London's unwanted locally)
The area has alot of beautiful mini towns and seafronts and even an Italian enclave!
So while it might boast Tracey Emin and Madonna, it's probably lumped in with Thanet as a whole.
So while yes it's becoming trendy for Londoners (it connects to HS1) it's probably written about the area and Thanet as opposed to margate.
The coastline is incredibly diverse with many different sea fronts. (If you ever get the chance take a day and walk from Ramsgate to Margate Turner and your see).
It's well worth a visit though and I'd highly recommend the UK's biggest Spoons in Ramsgate then an ice-cream in the Italian looking Viking Bay (by Italian ice-cream makers) before heading to Margate!
My last day in Margate was a coach trip with (PwC) maintenance staff, early eighties, bottles of pale ale on the coach for breakfast...enormous coaching pubs each way for two beers...pre ordered and waiting at the bar, and the most incredible day out, "from the smoke", ever.
Did all the coasters of course...but little recollection...of anything whatsoever.
What scenic?
Vaguely recall a half decent steel looper, and a big globe thing.
And as a serious Blackpool addict, there is nowhere better to seek out the "one street back desolation".
And I've been to Morecambe.
Did all the coasters of course...but little recollection...of anything whatsoever.
What scenic?
Vaguely recall a half decent steel looper, and a big globe thing.
And as a serious Blackpool addict, there is nowhere better to seek out the "one street back desolation".
And I've been to Morecambe.
owenstreet7
TS Member
I'm not sure Flamingo Park are doing much better
Pinball X has been moved on as of September and is due to end up in Northern Ireland.
Pinball X - Flamingo Park (Hastings, East Sussex, England, United Kingdom)
Looking for statistics on the fastest, tallest or longest roller coasters? Find it all and much more with the interactive Roller Coaster Database.
rcdb.com
SuperMuscleMan
TS Member
An injunction may not be the right worlds, however like most I'm sure we understand what is ment.
In my eyes it's ment as 'lets take a deep breath, stop and ask questions why this is being done'.
Alot of public money and time has been spent on this project so let's get live nation around the table to understand the costs and implications.
I also agree that the labour council (if not trying to ban free speech), should stress that if live nation want licences for events to continue in the future, then the site should be maintained and invested in year round. Especially for the benefit of those who live in the area and not just Londoners who want to go on a day trip for a concert and an art gallery.
SuperMuscleMan
TS Member
I know the crazy golf and the other amusements on the right-hand side are doing very well. (Owned by a different party)?
I think your right with pinball x https://www.beaming.co.uk/hastings-coastal-webcam/
I can see it beyond the Ferris wheel (sat beside it). Why did I not notice it had gone when I drove past on Monday!