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Efteling: General Discussion

John_P said:
Joris is great, must've done it close to 20 times in October (a fantastic group ert, and a few more right before park close)
The duelling aspect is fantastic, love the bits were they go over and under each other. The station music is great, the winning poll that reveals the winner, and the banners that drop in the station just add to the experience.

However for GCIs I've been on I'd go;

Wodan
Troy
Joris
Wicker Man

Hardly a bad list though as their all excellent experiences.
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I watched the PBE Vlog from that event, tempted to attend one myself in future. May be a bit weird on my own though.

Yeah I think that's the key point here that GCI are the ronseal of coaster manufacturers. They make great coasters, er... Internationally.
 
RicketyCricket said:
I watched the PBE Vlog from that event, tempted to attend one myself in future. May be a bit weird on my own though.

Yeah I think that's the key point here that GCI are the ronseal of coaster manufacturers. They make great coasters, er... Internationally.
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The PBE events are always a lot of fun and it's a pretty friendly group so I'd highly recommend attending them.
 
A quick summary of my visit and the main rides...

The landscaping, themeing and attention to detail in this park is incredible - up there with Europa. It's probably the freindliest park I've ever visited, the staff are superb.

Baron - Christ this was dull. The drop felt completely forceless and then it just fanny's around the rest of the course. The barrel roll was good though tbf.

Python - Just when the first stop starts picking up speed it stops abruptly and you go through the first loop, I'd quite like a bit more of a first drop! It's smooth as glass to the point it hardly makes a sound, pretty good fun and I like that they've put a lot of care into maintaining this classic.

Vogel Rock - surprisingly forceful and a very good coaster. I liked the light effects, it's not too much but just enough. Very reridable and one of my favourite indoor coasters.

Bob - good fun but these don't do much for me. It is amazing how small some of the children riding this were, literally 1-2 year olds it seemed - it's a hell of a starter coaster.

Joris - this is a top 10 coaster for me, I absolutely loved it. We went on the red side first and it was very good, but then the blue side is absolutely wild. The tracks are pretty much identical but blue was flying around it, maybe it's got different wheels or something? Anyway, we got double figure rides in just before park closing, mostly without having to leave our seats. These back row night rides after it had warmed up were absolutely incredible. The airtime was ridiculous, and it was up there with Wodan in terms of intensity.

Symbolica - yeah it's ok I suppose. Had no idea what was going on. The quality of themeing is impressive, it's very bright and colourful so perfect for kids. I prefer Ratatouille.

Dream Flight - this is the best dark ride in the park, it's difficult to explain... It just made me feel so relaxed and happy. If you ever feel stressed out drive over to Efteling and reride this :D

Spent a good hour or so in the Fairytale Forest which was a nice break from the rides. Amazing how many animatronics are in there and every single one of them is working. Imagine if Merlin were in charge, it would be rotting away.

I won't be back for a while (unless they build another thrill coaster) but it's definitely an absolute must do park.
 
The day people realise the difference between actual racism and (accidentally) poor taste goofy caricatures will be a good one. For a while I lived in a country where all English people were portrayed as either tea-obsessed handlebar-moustached imperialist generals, or Harry Potter, it was very dumb but funny.

But this is a theme park ride, it's not trying to be culturally reflective and neither should it be. Id welcome changes to alter the more distasteful caricatures so long as it kept the ride's sense of fun (sounds like that's what they're doing), but Im sure a vocal minority will continue to find it "hateful" anyway.
 
They're refurbing a ride and part of that is making changes to bits that some people find portrays them in a way that is needlessly and unfairly insensitive, literally what is being lost that's worth a HURRR PC GONE MAD rant?
 
TakeYourMedicine said:
The day people realise the difference between actual racism and (accidentally) poor taste goofy caricatures will be a good one.
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To me, the caricatures on this ride are so mind-bogglingly stupid and offensive that yeah, they're just ridiculous. But that's just my particular (increasingly dated?) sense of humour.

The comparison of a "moustached Englishman" doesn't quite work, though. The Netherlands' historic relationship with colonialism and slavery has lead to some very sticky current conversations about race, maybe even more so than in the UK (Google: 'Black Pete'...) Silly as it might sound, these cartoonish stereotypes were once used as a form of subjugation themselves. I'm not sure it's a "vocal minority" any longer who would rather not have them present on a family theme park ride, simply as they seem mean-spirited. Efteling is basically a proper cultural institution to the people of the Netherlands, so I think they're making the right move here. And like you say, it will definitely still be fun, and it will definitely still have one of the most annoying songs ever recorded.
 
Plastic Person said:
Silly as it might sound, these cartoonish stereotypes were once used as a form of subjugation themselves.
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Oh yes, but I think its the intention that counts. It's stupid and bad taste in this ride but had no intention of being "hateful and racist" like the complaints say. Makes sense to change them to better reflect the theme of the ride (a cartoony cultural celebration). But not to passify some highly strung people who actually believe they're contributing to stopping racism by lobbying a theme park to change a ride.

The worst example of this kind of thing was when Disney removed scenes of women being chased by pirates in Pirates of the Caribbean that had been there for decades, and was clearly done in a humorous way (the punchline being the last one had a woman chasing the pirate). It was just a knee jerk reaction to remove it, by that logic you may as well ban all use of pirates for entertainment, because historically they were all violent criminals.

Sounds like what Efteling doing is better handled though and more justified.

Plastic Person said:
The comparison of a "moustached Englishman" doesn't quite work, though.
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All I mean is silly stereotypes do exist in all directions, I didn't mean it as an example of real racism. What I was referring to was a much loved "historical" film (more of an action movie) in that country, which portrayed British people in a caricatured way as evil and ignorant, every body with a handle-bar moustache and cowards, etc. Whereas that was a much loved film in that country, if it was the other way around the filmmakers would probably have silly death threats.

Martin said:
They're refurbing a ride and part of that is making changes to bits that some people find portrays them in a way that is needlessly and unfairly insensitive, literally what is being lost that's worth a HURRR PC GONE MAD rant?
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Nobody on this forum is saying that? I was calling out the difference between actual 'hateful racism' (as the complaints against the park called it) and just poor taste, which seems to be more naivety in the case of this ride.
 
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TakeYourMedicine said:
All I mean is silly stereotypes do exist in all directions, I didn't mean it as an example of real racism. What I was referring to was a much loved "historical" film (more of an action movie) in that country, which portrayed British people in a caricatured way as evil and ignorant, every body with a handle-bar moustache and cowards, etc. Whereas that was a much loved film in that country, if it was the other way around the filmmakers would probably have silly death threats.
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It's all a question of power. Britain, for example, was the leader of the world, and still arguably has a chip on its shoulder than it no longer is. 'Western' media had the money and the wherewith-all to depict Africa as the 'dark' continent, an unsophisticated, uncivilized land of tribal violence, mystery and sexuality. Of course, there are now African people all over the world - some who have emigrated of their own accord, others who are living in the West as their ancestors were literally stolen - and some of these stereotypes are still prevalent and serve to make people's lives miserable, or at least undermine them and put them in boxes. It's difficult to understand unless it's something you experience. Of course, nobody sensible is saying that Efteling are committing actual, violent racism 365 days a year, but even in the mainstream discourse, the idea has shifted to suggest that our history is entwined moreso with our present than previously thought. Some people push this to rather ludicrous extremes, and attract all the press attention along the way, but then, the sands of society are shifting faster than ever...

Anyway, this is a properly complex subject, and has very little to do with Efteling. But on a similar note, I doubt Phantasialand will be investing in anything like 'Deep in Africa' again. It's telling that they have moved towards broader, more 'fantasy' themes of it's namesake in the past decade or more. It's not just a question of whether they can get away with 'appropriation', it's just that the world is a smaller place now.
 
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Plastic Person said:
Of course, nobody sensible is saying that Efteling are committing actual, violent racism 365 days a year
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Yeah this is all I was calling out, the not-so sensible vocal minority beliving it to be "hateful and racist". Not the broader historical context which I totally appreciate. I agree with the way Efteling appear to be handling it, rather than the way many other institutions respond to this kinda thing (like the example of Disney with PotC).

It's all about intent and context, the two things that seem to be increasingly overlooked when things like this pop up and you end up with things blown out of proportion. But to clarify I think Efteling have taken the right action
 
There is no practical difference between deliberate and accidental racism. I'm sure if you were told you were being racist and you didn't realise, you'd stop whatever it was you were doing and apologise?

There's always a dodgy attempt to blame these things on some shapeless "do gooders" or "cry arses" or whatever who aren't actually affected, which writes out the people who are affected because it's harder to tell them they're wrong. I'm sure there's plenty of Asian people who aren't bothered, but it's always weird seeing people who aren't part of a group holding up people who are in a group that aren't bothered as a "look you're offended on their behalf when they don't care" and ignoring the people who do.

Like I said, no one is worse off for less iffy stereotypes being around.
 
Martin said:
There is no practical difference between deliberate and accidental racism. I'm sure if you were told you were being racist and you didn't realise, you'd stop whatever it was you were doing and apologise?
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I thought racism was discriminating against people of a certain race? Huge practical difference to just a naive depiction of other cultures (in a ride that's obviously intending to celebrate different cultures in a cartoony way) that shows up as being silly 40 years after it was made, now that the world is a smaller place.

I don't know what you're complaining about, I keep repeating I think Efteling is taking the right action. I'm not complaining about changing this distasteful scene, but the notion Efteling were being "hateful and racist" is ridiculous.

Like I said it's the context and intention that matters, even if sometimes it's tricky to work out. There's a lot of real racism in the world, let's save it for tackling that!
 
Yep, Efteling are making a good decision here to be honest. What was maybe considered fine at the time the attraction was built has probably over the years become a bit of a distasteful representation of certain cultures so it’s right to change it to appeal to modern tastes and acceptabilities. I don’t see there being a problem with that at all. The notion that Efteling would intentionally fill their attractions with content that might be considered racist to today’s audiences is ridiculous though, we know that isn’t true.
 
TakeYourMedicine said:
Like I said it's the context and intention that matters, even if sometimes it's tricky to work out. There's a lot of real racism in the world, let's save it for tackling that!
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Eeesh, I'm reluctant to respond to this, as I'm glad this forum generally stays away from the 'culture wars' stuff that has divided and ruined the rest of the internet, and also, we're all on the same page.

Basically, assuming you are not a person of colour, you don't really get to decide what is 'real' racism, and what isn't. And of course, there's a sliding scale. The murder of a young black person by white nationalists is obviously a more pressing concern than the 'othering' of bad stereotypes in media and culture, but that doesn't mean the latter isn't 'real' racism. Activists can be annoying - trust me, I work in music and culture, and I'm constantly battling with my inner, small-C conservative Englishman that wishes people would just chill out - but a lot of people who have had their concerns explained away by those at the top have basically, gotten a bit fed up, regardless of context and/or intent. Stuff like this matters in the broader continuum of society.

Now, please enjoy this healing photo of Pardoes, who enjoys not only his white privilege, but the privilege of actual magical powers which may or may not be able to defeat fascism.

Pardoes-blijft.jpg
 
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Plastic Person said:
assuming you are not a person of colour, you don't really get to decide what is 'real' racism, and what isn't
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I don't get to personally decide what is and what isn't, but logical reason does and this can be reasonably debated (I guess what we've ended up doing here). Racism is discrimination by race, whatever that race may be. And it can't be 'decided' by one race and not another like you suggest, although I'm not ignoring that historically it's been towards the countries depicted in this ride.

The fact this is being conflated with unintented scene in a children's ride and my words taken way out of proportion kind of makes me dispair but never mind, it's all part of the discussion and I'm happy to have it!
 
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