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If they correctly booked players for dissent (for example) I don't think we'd ever have a match finish with 22 left on the pitch. Bruno Fernandes certainly wouldn't.

Also shows the biggest problem in inconsistency. One week a ref books someone for waving a card, next week he doesn't. But it's been like that for years, particularly the timewasting aspect of it. Wouldn't be surprised if more often than not the refs are told to play to the spectacle rather than the rules.

Worst example of ref bias I've seen was against Arsenal where the ref basically told the manager "sub him off before I send him off" after he really should've been getting that second yellow out. Those sort of incidents result in the "us against the big teams" viewpoint for many.

Think most refs have a chip on their shoulder. A whole potato field in the case of Clattenburg.
 
How about when they don't give yellow cards in the first half for pretty obvious yellow card offences, but then if you accidentally brush past someone a few minutes into the second half the ref can't wait to flash his cards. Just obviously managing the game instead of actually applying the laws consistently. Does my head in that does.
 
Having had a long look at social media posts and articles from various journalists on the VAR fuck up. I'm astonished at how the public or professional writers can't seem to grasp what Liverpool are trying to achieve.

At no point has anyone sane at the club or it's fan base have ever suggested a reply should occur. But twitter/X and Facebook posts are full of other supporters showing various injustices saying "I want a reply too." That's not what we are after. But, as always "it's Liverpool lads, the victims are out in force, why do they never move on.....god save the king" and all that.

The club has said human error can happen, yes refs are prone to the odd gaff that lead to sides being relegated, missing out on finals, Europe and all that. What Liverpool as a club are after is a full understanding of how that happened. It's asking for the PGMOL to do what it should do in realise the audio so we all hear what happened. Deal with the situation so it doesn't happen again. Train the match officials so they know how to use the thing and maybe have a think in to how we use this better in the future so this kind of error never happens again.

But I'm seeing so many posts of decisions not given and PGMOL just apologising. So why have we stood for it. It's ok to moan about VAR but hang on WOAH there don't ever bring the all powerful secret society that is PGMOL to account. How long do we have to suffer as a sport with this piss poor, weak match officials? Just amazed at how many people just roll over and let things like this just happen without any fight.

This is a chance to get a good reform into the sport. It's going to be missed because "it's Liverpool lads, always the victims"
 
Football is tribalistic to a tee. Wouldn't base opinions of fans sat at home watching their favourite YouTubers watching the game.

Not helped by most Liverpool fans being super defensive either. Plays into the "always the victim" narrative certain areas of the media love to use.
 
Benzin said:
Not helped by most Liverpool fans being super defensive either. Plays into the "always the victim" narrative certain areas of the media love to use.
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Do you want explain that lad?

Maybe the reason why they are super defensive is because once again, instead of listening and having conversation. The same old lazy tropes that started days after Hillsborough come out. The whataboutery starts. We are all bored of it.
 
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My experience on other forums involving football discussions mostly. Rather than discuss the situation sensibly would rather sulk and seemingly ignore that their team have benefitted from dodgy decisions many times in the past. Like every fan base, there are people who cannot see any wrong in their side and will do the most mental of gymnastics to prove it.

It's like bringing up the Saudi crimes to a Geordie these days, you get accused of being jealous of them having the money.

You can have both opinions that the referees need to be held accountable for being useless AND frustrated that it takes an incident to happen against one of the big clubs for things to actually happen. Especially when one of the referees in question only a fortnight ago apparently ignored the advice of the VAR regarding a penalty he'd awarded.

Turning it into an us vs them situation as a Liverpool fan doesn't help just as much as people making a big deal of it. Look at the Onana incident earlier in this season, number of times Brighton had an apology last season or when Mike Dean didn't want to make his friend look bad. Everyone is actually in agreement in the quality of refereeing, but the tribalism that is abundant (especially in the echo chambers of social media) makes a divide within it.
 
"Turning them into an us Vs them situation as a Liverpool fan doesn't help just as much as people making a big deal out of it"

"As much as I do personally find it amusing that Liverpool find themselves on the wrong end on a bad decision"

"Not helped by most Liverpool fans being super defensive either. Plays into the "always the victim" narrative certain areas of the media love to use."

What Those 3 quotes say to me is that you have preconceived idea around Liverpool and its supporters.

We have a chance to now, as adults to have a conversation about this. But all I'm getting is more "whataboutery" it's not helping. Journalists putting daft ideas into people heads about replays. We have a chance now to actually put the PGMOL under the spotlight. Ask Howard Webb what are we going to do about all this that is going on. Not just the offside Saturday, but everything. No matter the side, no matter the incident. Why is it taking so long to relise the audio? Could have done that Sunday. Why are you doing the investigations and not an outside independent body? How we going to fix this? Could we use video refs from both rugby codes to come in and have a look processes? Why is Mike Dean saying that? Why is there a old boys network in place protecting you?

As for the onana incident. Gary O'Neil is fully behind what we are doing by the way. As he knows it takes a club the size of Liverpool to actually force a change. Something that he and wolves feel can't which isn't right. When I saw that incident as a Liverpool fan was to go " Howard Webb and united again"

What club do you support by the way?
 
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I was kind of glad when this happened, because I knew that finally the PGMOL would be called into question after years of dodgy or sub-standard officiating. It was always going to take a club like Liverpool to make this happen because not only are they a big club with the fanbase to match, but importantly, they have the ex-pro's in the media and punditry to keep the momentum of the mistake going in public. My club had a large number of VAR mistakes go against us in its first year and we got relegated. We didn't have anyone in place in the media to make a big thing of it and I think they only bothered apologising to us once. All that we got is a red card and a fine for our manager for complaining about an obvious error. The VAR panel needs to be totally independent of the referee's association. No matey club. Just there to make sensible decisions and not be refereeing half way across the world a couple of days before a Prem match.
 
Support Palace, who have had plenty of bad decisions over the years.

Wouldn't say that stating that Liverpool fans have been very defensive over things isn't really preconceived. If I recall last season after Nunez headbutted Andersen there were a number of 'fans' being salty about that, probably the same ones spouting racist abuse at the Spurs player this week. Fans are often super defensive of their own team for some reason, although nowadays it pretty much changes based on whoever is the flavour of the month to hate.

Again, everyone is in agreement that the refereeing is terrible. Pointing out the various examples isn't "whataboutery" to me; it's pretty much supporting the current claim, and pointing out that clubs have tended to benefit from bias over the years shouldn't result in those fans trying to deflect it as an attack on them. Its pointing out how long the issue has been underlying and ignored for years.

Though probably helped by it being an obnoxiously clearly wrong decision rather than one that is arguable like some penalty incidents are.
 
I used to like palace, but ya keep bringing Roy Hodgeson back from the dead!!!

I know our social media fans are shite. Why I only follow decent reds on line.

This incident is the first of VAR calls I know of where the protocols in place have failed so bad and in a way where we are now able to go are you sure this is the best way you can think of doing it?
 
Roy will never die!

In terms of VAR they should've looked at the automated offside system that was in use at the World Cup. Then the videos as a back up should the system break for whatever reason.

Transparency in the grounds is paramount too. The system in the Women's World Cup was a starting point to potentially push it onwards, but if you're in the crowd you don't have any idea what's happening until the decision is confirmed. Announcements for the checks at Old Trafford were very drowned out so had to base upon the replays shown in the concourse behind us.

Beyond that, better quality referees is the first step. However there's understandably a very limited pool there. Not sure many of us grow up around football and want to be an official. And as said perhaps a combination of people would be better than just refs, though numerous pundits and ex pros have proven themselves not understanding of the rules at times so its very difficult to implement.
 
I wouldn't let any pundit near a whistle.

The standard of the man in middle will never improve under the current system. The structure or leadership is not there. Especially from the former South Yorkshire copper running the gaff at the mo. Who seems to have no one to hold him to account.

The issue we have in the north west especially at the moment is alot of refs from the greater Manchester area, who have declared support Altrincham Town. Strange that.
 
Was funny seeing how the media and pundits were aghast at the mistake and saying something should happen.

Then Liverpool said something should happen.

Then the same pundits were like why have Liverpool said something like that.

Also the PGMOL just adknowledged the mistake, they didn't apologise for it.
 
There needs to be a rugby style of language employed. Can I give the goal? Yes or No answer. Nothing vague. If such a situation happens again, stop the game and the VAR need to speak to Webb.
 
Ah Liverpool fans calm down. Yes VAR is a farce and you were robbed, but the title is going to City anyway.

Maybe you should be enjoying what's happening at Old Trafford more.

More drama than Coronation Street.
 
The audio makes for grim listening, and it is clear from the start that England was very keen to get the check done as quickly as possible. You could argue this is due to pressure from fans and the media always going on about how VAR takes too long. But you cannot sacrifice accuracy for efficiency.

What I find strange is that VAR, on the whole, seems to work pretty well in the Champions League. They use semi-automated offside which certainly does speed up the process, and you just don't seem to get as many controversial VAR decisions.
 
The language seems pretty loose to me. They should use specific unambiguous terms for offside/not offside, penalty/no penalty etc and not just say "all good" or whatever
 
The startling thing for me is the VAR and AVAR are very much clueless as to has happened on the pitch. The lad who is there for the technical stuff seems very on it and is the one to correct.

It's very clear the mix up was brought on by poor lines of communication. When VAR was brought in they decided that "goal" and "no goal" was to vague. Which it's is. You in a stadium with alot of noise and the sound may break. We all know big metal bowls aren't the best for signals to get through. To say "check complete" and for no one to ask or say what the result of that check is, is bizarre.

For me the end command as to the result should mention who would benefit from the result. As an example below

Decision made. Goal Liverpool.
Decision made. Offside free kick Tottenham.

Repeat what is said and get the ref to acknowledge the command.
 
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