Gender Identity

[pluk]

In that situation when you know the couple then sure use he and she, but it's hardly necessary for someone you haven't met (as in, someone who you may use the wrong pronoun for)

Of course it is, say I'm dealing with a couple I don't know at work, handing over information to a colleague, he and she become very useful.

But more to the point, it's not offensive in meaning or intent AT ALL, so why change? At the very worst it's mildly awkward to make a correction if someone gets it 'wrong'.

 

[Tom]

Scientifically you can't change gender, with the arguable exception of 'the op'. Socially however I guess you can, there is a difference.

The same is the definition of marriage, you can't change the religious definition, but you can the legal and social one - as has been proven.

The most annoying thing about the gender identity thing is actually the anger over it - who cares?

 

[Jb85]

Scientifically you can't change gender, with the arguable exception of 'the op'. Socially however I guess you can, there is a difference.

The same is the definition of marriage, you can't change the religious definition, but you can the legal and social one - as has been proven.

The most annoying thing about the gender identity thing is actually the anger over it - who cares?

I don’t care so much other than if it changes the use of language to the point you can’t refer to people as he or she as the norm

 

[Tom]

I don’t care so much other than if it changes the use of language to the point you can’t refer to people as he or she as the norm

You can do whatever you wish, unless the law is changed. However, in time it may become socially unacceptable to defy people's wishes. In that case it is no different to every other social change which has met resistance throughout history.

 

[Jb85]

You can do whatever you wish, unless the law is changed. However, in time it may become socially unacceptable to defy people's wishes. In that case it is no different to every other social change which has met resistance throughout history.

Apart from biologically you are one or the other

 

[Dar]

I think society has a lot to answer for in this regard. We spend so much effort on making EVERYTHING male or female, that it was inevitable that people were going to start pushing back against that.

It's also really not that hard to just say "they/them" in conversation and, as a nice bonus, it really upsets the snowflakes.

 

[Rick]

@Dar there's a lot of history to undo there. I'd rather we spent more time and effort establishing equality between males and females, understanding & not hiding from the fact that that they both are pretty important if we want to keep the human race ticking along*.

I think nuking the concept of the two distinct things, when the vastness of majorities of people exist and self identify within one or other other is a tough sell.

*Aware this raises the debate of "sex and gender are not the same". Let's go.

 

[Jb85]

@Rick i totally agree with your comments

Also this they/them implies that one person is actually two people. It’s not logical

 

[MellowPasta]

I’m a bender and I’ll be honest I get confused lately about trans/she/him/they thing . People might think I’m ignorant and hypocritical for it but it’s not my life. If you don’t live it or know about it how are you supposed to know.

What I think is sad is people making assumptions you’re transphobic for not knowing. I know trans people have been around for a while but it’s only recent this has become so mainstream.

 

[Dar]

@Rick I agree, but there needs to some work done to unpick the associations of, for example, pink for girls and blue for boys. We're given this template that says "boys like X, Y, and Z, and girls like A, B, and C", so until we break this mould there's bound to be people that fit in to those descriptors, and don't want to be considered a "boy" or "girl", but maybe something in between? I don't think it's going to go away until we stop comparing people to our gender templates.

Also this they/them implies that one person is actually two people. It’s not logical

They/them have been used in the singular for a couple hundred years now. Maybe we should stop saying 'you' in the singular as well?

 

[ChristmasPud]

It's worth saying that not all gay people are 'LGBTxxxxxxx' campaigners, not all trans people believe in gender fluidity concepts or enshrining non-binary in law.. These are political beliefs and not necessarily by default.

Of course there's no problem with people living their lives the way they want to, so long as it isn't damaging to others and the world around them. Everyone is different.

The only problem is when other people want to enshrine their abstract beliefs in law and impose on everyone, be it for religious reasons, personal gratification... It goes both ways. Some people want contraception to be illegal because they believe in a certain concept, should that be enshrined in law? Others want non-binary to become a legal status because they believe another concept much the same way.

But why does an M or F on piece of paperwork 'deny people to be themselves'? Perhaps we should look at the world in a less black and white way, of course, not everything has to be seen through a male or female perspective.

But claiming that you are oppressed because other people call you he or she— in a world that is fundamentally binary male or female after all—just seems like being in denial of reality. We should expect people to be respectful for each other's differences, no problem there, but what's now being asked is something quite different.

With many countries' 'hate speech' laws, legal penalties for saying the wrong words is fast becoming a reality. Far from reduce conflict between people, this is ridiculous and opens up a far greater issue of state control over what you can/can't say. It becomes a subjective means of forcing people to subscribe to a certain belief. I'd argue that this would actually massively damage social progress towards accepting transgender people!

After all, non-binary and all the terminology is just another concept built by a group of people, much like how 'gender' is often blamed as being a social construct. The difference is that at least gender has a fundamental basis in neutral fact. Male or female is pretty much the basis for all life.

It was best put to me like this—It's like knowing the basic rules of chess, you cant deny the rules but you can still play it your own way.

A difficult issue though!

 

[rob666]

Legal penalties for saying the wrong words became reality in Britain in the late sixties with the first race relations act.

 

[Tibble]

At the end of the day if you aren't hurting anyone or doing anything Illegal does it really matter? If someone wants to identify themselves as non-binary or the opposite gender then feel free, It isn't going to stop me chatting to them or speaking to them how they wish.

Yes I can see why people get miffed by it and there are conversations about toilets / changing rooms that needs to be had because some people feel uncomfortable by it. But again unless you are a sick individual who would purposely claim you identify as the opposite gender or non-binary to access a toilet for perverted reasons or worse then personally i don't see a problem (but i can understand why some people may be uncomfortable)

I read a twitter exchange the other day where a girl was saying she was offended and intimidated because she was in a gender neutral toilet and a man came in to use it and didn't wait outside (there were multiple toilets in there), In my mind she is the one who needs to change her attitude or not use gender neutral toilets.

Just let people live their life the way they want

 

[Stuie]

It's perfectly clear that these days male and female labels do not fit all people and it's not about the genitals they possess. You don't need to fully understand gender neutrality or non-binary issues - just be respectful and non-judgemental.

This is how I feel about it. I have no problem with moving towards a "unisex world" as such that's accommodating for nonnbinary, trans, etc people. Scrapping "he, she" and everyone using gender neutral pronouns would be a good start.

That's not what non-binary people want at all. It's this kind of approach that causes resentment amongst others too. I'm male, I want to be referred to as him. I respect others wishes but not at the expense of ours being side-lined.

I’m a bender and I’ll be honest I get confused lately about trans/she/him/they thing . People might think I’m ignorant and hypocritical for it but it’s not my life. If you don’t live it or know about it how are you supposed to know.

Not knowing doesn't make you ignorant. You can live your life however you wish, so long as you don't negatively impact anyone else's. I hate the word bender and I'd never refer to myself as one, but I fully respect your wishes to identify as that if you wish to!

 

[Rick]

That's not what non-binary people want at all. It's this kind of approach that causes resentment amongst others too. I'm male, I want to be referred to as him. I respect others wishes but not at the expense of ours being side-lined.

I'm not sure it's helpful to lump all non-binary people together and determine what they want and think! (or any other group for that matter...) In a world obsessed with labels, I'm a straight white male who should perhaps be quiet!

There are a number of quite high profile campaigners who do want to remove gender and references to it. I think that's what people don't like.

 

[rob666]

So have we decided if nemesis is a he or a she yet then?

 

[MellowPasta]

So have we decided if nemesis is a he or a she yet then?

She’s definitely menopausal

 

[rob666]

Highly unlikely in her twenties surely?

 

[Stuie]

I'm not sure it's helpful to lump all non-binary people together and determine what they want and think! (or any other group for that matter...) In a world obsessed with labels, I'm a straight white male who should perhaps be quiet!

There are a number of quite high profile campaigners who do want to remove gender and references to it. I think that's what people don't like.

That was my point.

I know a couple of non-binary people, or genderless, as they prefer. Whilst they are genderless, they don't want me to not be a male when I want to be.

 

[Rick]

That was my point.

I know a couple of non-binary people, or genderless, as they prefer. Whilst they are genderless, they don't want me to not be a male when I want to be.

Right - they don't, but it's part of the wider conversation, it's been suggested in this thread.