Gender Map

[Fredward]

I will throw in my two cents, I would say Gender and sex is the same thing, in fact the dictionary confirms this.

And that is to do with whether you have a penis or vagina

Who you are as a person, is just that. I don't see the point in giving your self a label. You can say you are a girl trapped in a man's body, or vis virsa but alas you are still a man, (until you go all the way in terms of sex change)

My two cents on terminology, not that terminology matters you are who are regardless of a label.

Anywaaaayyy

I'm a boring old male who loves the girls.

 

[EuroSatch]

My problem with understanding anything further than the biological/physical side of 'gender' is I am yet to see a definition of a 'male' and 'female' identity outside of physical organs. Anything beyond that is to me a social construct that doesn't define gender identities but has shaped them over time.

If we ignore the prehistoric notions of a woman in the kitchen and a man earning the bread, to bring this couple into modern society, and then remove a penis and a vagina from said man an woman, what are we left with? What the man identify as a male and the woman as a female?

Take my homosexual relationship with Simon. People often ask who takes the 'female' role in the relationship. I in return ask what they mean as a relationship does not require a 'female' role. So without conforming to gender roles, what actually makes us gay men other than both of us having a penis? (Yes, to quash any rumours, there are two penises in our bedroom!)

 

[Meat Pie]

I must not understand what 'gender' means then. :S

How do you define gender if not by the physical body and not by supposed gender-specific characteristics which culture has bullied into us?

My genitalia indicates to me that I am a male, but that doesn't mean that I feel that there is some kind of criteria I need to meet to be male... I just am a male because I physically am. This would be the same if I woke up with a vagina. I wouldn't feel that somehow I'm not female unless I met some kind of non-existent personality criteria 'required' to be female.

Unless you are suggesting that Genders have different mental/psychological or personality states, then I fail to see how genders have an identity worth acknowledging, it's just a physical state?

 

[khalichanan]

Sam, I see through your guise of merely trying to find out the genders of TST...you just wanted to cause a debate I know you...

Also-I think what gender a person is at the person's discretion. If a human who was physically female told me they were a boy, I'd accept that and move on. Of course my gender is defined by my personality and society but it's not just society that has defined gender roles. In the wild there are specific gender roles.

I'd still be me, in a boy's body, but I'd consider myself a female (after getting past the shock...) because that's what my mind aligns with.


I've got my eye on you, Sam.

 

[Tom]

I find this a question of character traits and personalities, rather than gender.


-Sent from a mobile phone-

 

[Rose Of Dawn]

I will throw in my two cents, I would say Gender and sex is the same thing, in fact the dictionary confirms this.

And that is to do with whether you have a penis or vagina

"Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviour, activities and attributes that a particular society considers appropriate for men and women."


Source: http://www.who.int/topics/gender/en/

Who you are as a person, is just that. I don't see the point in giving your self a label. You can say you are a girl trapped in a man's body, or vis virsa but alas you are still a man, (until you go all the way in terms of sex change)

No. This isn't just wrong, it's offensive.

Firstly, I don't see myself as a girl trapped in a man's body. Like I stated at the start of this thread, I am a transsexual woman, or a woman with a penis, or even more accurately a woman. Secondly, how DARE you call me a man! Who the hell are you to judge who I am! The amount of shit I've been through to get where I am, you wouldn't believe. And who are you to say that the operation (which isn't even called a sex change - how can you even comment on this without knowing anything?) is what makes me a woman? Like I've been saying in this thread all along, your genitals do not dictate your gender!!

 

[Simon]

The fact that this discussion exists at all is testament to gender/sex being quite nuanced ideas, and it's unsurprising that confusion is rife.

You know what, I just don't know. Clearly, at least one person will come at this from a much more personal perspective - but that's all any of us can do, as individuals. It's a really interestibng thread so far though and I'll keep reading and thinking.

I'd recommend Virginia Woolf's Orlando as a book though. It's rollicking fun, with tongue firmly in cheek in its exploration of gender, sex, sexuality...and writing.



Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Mr P]

My view on all this is people need to understand that gender is what you see yourself as, not what's in your pants. I mean, I'm no expert on this subject, but I really couldn't give a monkeys what's between somebody's legs, it's what's in their mind that matters in my view. Yes, I am a male, I happen to have a penis betwixt my leg, but just because other people have (or had) a penis, it does not fix them as male. Likewise, if you own a vagina, but you see yourself as male, there's nothing fixing you as female.

 

[delta79]

shall i muddy the waters a bit and mention the University of Iowa study headed up by Peg Nopoulos, Jessica Wood. over the size of a subdivision in the ventral prefrontal cortex, known as the straight gyrus.

They found it to be about 10 percent larger in the women, compared to men they studied (after correcting for males’ larger brain size)

As conciousness and the personally of an individual come from the brain, does this affect gender?

 

[Meat Pie]

Mr P - I think people should focus on seeing themselves as humans beings, rather than worrying about what it means to be a man or a woman, which is after-all an irrelevant factor in personality.

If you can't explain why gender differences makes you different as a person, then I fail to see how gender is a non-physical thing.

Having said that, I think I should just stress that it is rude for people not to respect other's wishes to be seen as they want, even if I don't necessarily understand their definition.

 

[Mr P]

Meat Pie - surely a key part of being a human being is being comfortable with who you are? If you're not happy, your not living. What makes us people isn't being human, it's expressing ourselves as the individual we are inside, not the physical form we take.

 

[Rose Of Dawn]

If you can't explain why gender differences makes you different as a person, then I fail to see how gender is a non-physical thing.

Gender identity refers to a person's private sense of, and subjective experience of, their own gender. This is generally described as one's private sense of being a man or a woman, consisting primarily of the acceptance of membership into a category of people: male or female.[1] All societies have a set of gender categories that can serve as the basis of the formation of a social identity in relation to other members of society. In most societies, there is a basic division between gender attributes assigned to males and females. In all societies, however, some individuals do not identify with some (or all) of the aspects of gender that are assigned to their biological sex.

In most Western societies, there exists a gender binary, a social dichotomy that enforces conformance to (and often refuses to acknowledge anything outside of) the ideals of masculinity and femininity in all aspects of gender and sex - gender identity, gender expression and biological sex. Some societies have so-called third gender categories that can be used as a basis for a gender identity by people who are uncomfortable with the gender that is usually associated with their sex; in other societies, membership of any of the gender categories is open to people regardless of their sex.

While many may think gender identity and confusion forms when a child is going through puberty, gender identity in children begins to form around the age of three. Gender identity is affected by influence of others, social interactions, and a child’s own personal interest. Understanding gender can be broken down into four parts: (1) understanding the concept of gender, (2) learning gender role standards and stereotypes, (3) identifying with parents, and (4) forming gender preference (Newman 243). A three year old can identify themselves as a boy or a girl, though they do not yet know gender is permanent.[citation needed]

Gender identity is formed as children search for social cues and display approval for others based upon the gender with which the child identifies, though gender identity is very fluid among young children. Studies suggest that children develop gender identity in three distinct stages: as toddlers and preschoolers, they learn about defined characteristics, which are socialized aspects of gender; the second stage is consolidation, in which identity becomes rigid, around the ages of 5–7 years; after this "peak of rigidity," fluidity returns and socially defined gender roles relax somewhat.[2]

Although the term "gender identity" was originally a medical term used to explain sex reassignment surgery to the public,[3] it is most often found in psychology today, often as core gender identity.[4] Basic gender identity is usually formed by age three and is extremely difficult to change after that.[5][6][7] Although the formation of gender identity is not completely understood, many factors have been suggested as influencing its development. Biological factors that may influence gender identity include pre- and post-natal hormone levels and genetic makeup.[8] Social factors which may influence gender identity include ideas regarding gender roles conveyed by family, authority figures, mass media, and other influential people in a child's life.[9] Another factor that has a significant role in the process of gender identity is language, there are ways that certain words are associated with specific genders, "The relationship between language and gender has largely reflected how linguistic practices, among other kinds of practices, are used in the construction of social identities relating to issues of masculinity and femininity." (Adegoju,2000).[full citation needed] So children while learning a language learn to separate masculine and feminine characteristics and unconsciously adjust their own behavior to these predetermined roles.[10] Children are often shaped and and molded by the people surrounding them by trying to imitate and follow.[11] One's gender identity is also influenced by the social learning theory, which assumes that children develop their gender identity through observing and imitating gender-linked behaviors, and then being rewarded or punished for behaving that way.[12] In some cases, a person's gender identity may be inconsistent with their biological sex characteristics, resulting in individuals dressing and/or behaving in a way which is perceived by others as being outside cultural gender norms; these gender expressions may be described as gender variant or transgender.[13]

Since the development of gender identity is influenced by so many factors, it is understandable that there are disorders and conditions associated with it as well. One of the major disorders is gender identity disorder (GID). Gender identity disorder is defined by strong, persistent feelings of identification with the opposite gender and discomfort with one's own assigned sex.[14] The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (302.85) has five criteria that must be met before a diagnosis of gender identity disorder can be made. "In gender identity disorder, there is discordance between the natal sex of one's external genitalia and the brain coding of one's gender as masculine or feminine."[3] Interestingly, gender identity disorder is also made up of more specific disorders, each of which focuses on the disorder in people of certain age groups. For example, gender identity disorder in children is specific to children who experience gender dysphoria.

 

[GAGrathea]

My problem with understanding anything further than the biological/physical side of 'gender' is I am yet to see a definition of a 'male' and 'female' identity outside of physical organs. Anything beyond that is to me a social construct that doesn't define gender identities but has shaped them over time.

I think that's the point though...especially given that definition of gender above referring to "the socially constructed roles, behaviour, activities and attributes that a particular society considers appropriate for men and women."

I think gender entirely bottles down to labeling, which while not strictly 'necessary' is like...the only concrete way of summarising the entirety of your thoughts on a certain issue in a way that someone can kinda comprehend without being you. In the same way that I'd go 'I'm Bisexual' and from that you get a rough idea of what's going on inside me (I should be so lucky...), even though we might really have completely differences of how attraction feels or something...but we can't know because we can only experience our own emotions.

Therefore gender is perhaps the way of identifying to other people the role you see yourself playing within the social constructs of 'male' and 'female'...and whether or not it's anything more than that, social constructs are a thing we generally live within and define ourselves by.

I guess defining your gender only matters as much as you want it to, in the same way as defining sexuality does - but the majority of people seem to place a great importance on defining that. But the very existence of transgender people surely demonstrates the need for there to be a greater understanding of its fluid nature...and with that comes labeling aspects.

That's my confused mess of thoughts...sleepy, will try and come up with something more sensical.

 

[Sam]

Gender and sex are different things entirely. Sex is what's between your legs, gender's what's between your ears.

Meat Pie, your point that gender should be irrelevant I have to disagree with. Many people, especially trans* people, identify positively with their gender of choice. Gender in itself doesn't create sexism and stuff.

Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk 2

 

[Meat Pie]

Mr P - Absolutely agree with you that being comfortable is key to being human. But surely that means casting off ideas that somehow being male is different from being female, rather than reinforcing false ideas that gender differences impact on who you are.

Can you explain to me, how being male is different from being female other than the physical reasons, in a way that makes sense?

What I don't understand is why people let gender be such a big issue. Gender means no more than having a penis or a vagina. Everything else is your personality. By identifying yourself as female when you have a penis, what does this actually mean then?

There's really only two ways of seeing gender and that's either that it is purely physical, or that it is a psychological difference which impacts on your personality, in which case that's an incredibly bold statement which I really rather resent as it's firstly untrue, and secondly it perpetuates the idea there is a male mindset and personality which is completely different from female mindset and personality. I find that idea offensive as it's a profoundly sexist.

AshleeKel - That doesn't remotely come close to answering my questions. Male and Female are both words that have to actually mean something. You either say it's a physical difference or it is a mental/personality difference. Can you please clarify your position on that as it's still very vague to me.

Do you think there are personality characteristics that are specific to females and personality characteristics specific to males? If so, how can you not see that as a sexist position? Personalities are not effected by gender and to say so is to somehow claim that there are intrinsic mental differences between the genders. I feel massively uncomfortable with the implications of such a claim. Gender has as much bearing on any of these issues as the genetics which decide the colour of hair.

 

[Dar]

I don't think it's sexist to distinguish between male and female. There are physical differences between them and there are some mental differences between the sexes. To acknowledge that isn't to say that one is better than the other.

I still stand by my "male because of my penis, my personality is separate" opinion.

 

[Meat Pie]

To distinguish physical difference is of course not sexist, but to say that there is a male or female mindset is sexist since someone's personality is all that they are, and to say that gender should be significant enough as to impact on you as a person is sexist since it is stereotyping. I really do find this quite an upsetting idea, since I am me and I will not be told that some psychological gender mindset dictates how I am.

 

[Jordan]

This isn't usually a debate I'd get involved with. But it's late and there's been some really interesting points which have made me think a bit.

I'm not sure at what level of abstraction I'm perceiving this, but when physical characteristics are not taken into account, it feels to me like there's little to differentiate a female from a male. I wonder whether, spiritually, there is no such thing as gender at all, and the fact that people choose to identify themselves as a gender is based on the cultural expectations and pre-existing stereotypes in society.

In a world where barriers and acceptance to a particular 'gender' doing an activity are being progressively destroyed, these stereotypes soon lose relevance. With the movement for LGBT rights across the world well underway, it doesn't seem so unrealistic to think that a future exists where a person is a person, and not identified by their physical features that would have traditionally defined who they could marry and the roles they would have expected to take in society.

 

[Rose Of Dawn]

What I don't understand is why people let gender be such a big issue. Gender means no more than having a penis or a vagina. Everything else is your personality. By identifying yourself as female when you have a penis, what does this actually mean then?

You should be glad that you don't understand why gender can be a big issue. Really, you should. Your won't have to suffer the anguish I have, and that's the only way you could truly understand it.

Identifying as a female when I have a penis means my gender is female. I am sick of having to repeat this over and over.

There's really only two ways of seeing gender and that's either that it is purely physical, or that it is a psychological difference which impacts on your personality, in which case that's an incredibly bold statement which I really rather resent as it's firstly untrue, and secondly it perpetuates the idea there is a male mindset and personality which is completely different from female mindset and personality. I find that idea offensive as it's a profoundly sexist.

Gender is how you see yourself. It's how you identify. You're making this a lot harder than it needs to be. On top of that, there are more gender identities than just male or female.

AshleeKel - That doesn't remotely come close to answering my questions. Male and Female are both words that have to actually mean something. You either say it's a physical difference or it is a mental/personality difference. Can you please clarify your position on that as it's still very vague to me.

Sex is physical. Gender is mental.

Do you think there are personality characteristics that are specific to females and personality characteristics specific to males? If so, how can you not see that as a sexist position? Personalities are not effected by gender and to say so is to somehow claim that there are intrinsic mental differences between the genders.

There are personality traits more common to females, and personality traits more common to males. Having these traits alone doesn't make you that gender. But sharing a lot of these traits can make you start to identify in such a way. But then it goes further, and eventually leads away from gender and towards sex. This is why people like myself go through gender reassignment, because we identify with female traits, social situations and so on to the point where we actually are women.

As another point, this is a difference between transgender and transsexual.

I feel massively uncomfortable with the implications of such a claim. Gender has as much bearing on any of these issues as the genetics which decide the colour of hair.

Oh, you feel uncomfortable? How do you think I feel? I'm having people questioning my gender, telling me it's not important. I've seen so many threads on this site that seem very open minded, especially when it comes to things like gay rights. But right now, I feel attacked for my gender identity and it's actually quite upsetting. Please bear in mind that all this stuff is very relevant to my life.

Trans* issues are complex. I understand that. But so many voices in this thread don't seem to be open to learning.

 

[GAGrathea]

The fact that there are a significant number of people in the world who have felt (and will feel) the need to physically change their genitals suggests to me that there has to be more to this than is understood by those of us who can sit here comfortable in our gender identity talking about social ideals...Hmm.