God- Real Or Not?

[Rose Of Dawn]

But how can you say for sure it isn't a soul that drives you to do that?

That's not a particularly good argument - by that standard, I could say "But how can you say for sure it isn't a weasel that drives you to do that?"

You cannot disprove a magical weasel in the same way you cannot disprove a soul, or God, or the Easter Bunny. Absence of evidence isn't evidence.

If we are ONLY physical, what would be the point in there being multiple dimensions existing simultaneously, is it not possible this is to facilitate existence itself in superposition?

Who says it needs a point? There are lots of things that exist with no purpose. Keith Chegwin, for example.

 

[delta79]

There is so much that is still not understood about the human mind. and there is new quantum physics theories coming out that could open up so much more understanding.
There are questions
1) is consciousness itself a soul or an illusion of a soul?
2) if a soul exists, what does it do then the physical form stops working?

 

[TheMan]

There is so much that is still not understood about the human mind. and there is new quantum physics theories coming out that could open up so much more understanding.
There are questions
1) is consciousness itself a soul or an illusion of a soul?
2) if a soul exists, what does it do then the physical form stops working?

I love quantum physics. At present I am trying to get my head around the implications of the "Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser" experiment.

Your point 1 is one of those questions that I find thrilling to contemplate! Superposition would suggest surely it could be either, both or neither?

The latter I would suggest is more about the soul wishing to experience other forms of existence, that's my personal belief, people get caught up in the religious aspect that makes them deeply uncomfortable - where as for me, I think it logical that consciousness would choose to experience different realities. It also explains a lot of experiences people have had down the years. If all possibilities exist, it's natural some will experience a more "spiritual" based physical life that others would. It is quite possible we are indeed part of exactly the same thing, experiencing itself in as many varying forms as possible.

That would rather conveniently mimic how the universe itself works, wouldn't it? The big bang, starts from a singular, and continues to expand into ever more varying forms of existence. It just feels and appears logical to me that life on earth would mimic that from what it was made of.

 

[Adam]

I think this is a pretty interesting subject tbh.

Personally, I believe in things like souls, I'm one of those people who can't believe that the complexity of the mind was created purely by chance. I'm agnostic (though kinda spiritual) so I'm not trying to say that there's no way it did just happen by chance, just that I choose to believe in there being some kinda higher being out there because it just makes more sense to me that way. As for the quantum physics side, I'm really not the sort of person who knows much about that.

As for the whole acid trips being proof of spirituality/souls thing, I don't really buy it. Being on acid is just like being drunk or taking painkillers, it's just something you go through via substances. Albeit something a lot more exciting and interesting than just popping a xanax cos you've got a headache.

 

[Dar]

Do you subscribe to Deepak Chopra's school of thought by any chance, TheMan? As far as I understand it, atoms don't have consciousness, they are just particles at different energy states.

As for quantum mechanics, again, as far as I understand, it just doesn't work on the macro scale. It deals with individual particles, once you get to people sized scales it breaks down into classical physics models.

 

[TheMan]

To a degree yes, but that is more an aspect of my personal beliefs rather than what I read, and based on my putting them to the test. That's not my point here however.

I also came from a place of believing the opposite it's worth noting, which worked far less efficiently or effectively.

"Effectiveness is the measure of truth" is my life mantra taken from Huna. In fact if it should help anyone like it helped me I'll post the main principles. Though I want to reiterate again the difference between what are my personal beliefs based on my own experiences, and that which is more evidential and a seeming trajectory that modern experimental and theoretical physics and science is taking.

I am however quite confident they will eventually meet, because if it's true, science will eventually discover it.

1. IKE – The world is what you think it is
2. KALA – There are no limits, everything is possible
3. MAKIA – Energy flows where attention goes
4. MANAWA – Now is the moment of power
5. ALOHA – To love is to be happy with
6. MANA – All power comes from within
7. PONO – Effectiveness is the measure of truth

 

[Dar]

Telling people during the war that carrots are good for your eyesight was really effective at getting people to eat carrots and convincing the nazis we didn't have radar, doesn't mean there was any truth in it.

 

[TheMan]

Telling people during the war that carrots are good for your eyesight was really effective at getting people to eat carrots and convincing the nazis we didn't have radar, doesn't mean there was any truth in it.

Seriously, that's your argument? War propaganda?

You boil down billions of people who feel in an intrinsic and natural spiritual connection of some kind, to WWII propaganda?

How on Earth is that even remotely relevant to this debate?

You just compared the teachings of Buddha, the Vedas, the Bible etc to EATING CARROTS, you do know that, right?

Let me explain something to you, I was not born into a religious nor spiritual family - quite the opposite. I had no forced beliefs, I did not encounter family pressures from this I was free to explore as I so chose. Instead of having a closed materialist view of the world, I decided to explore, read, talk, experiment, test, and remain open minded and curious.

It is abundantly obvious to me there's no point debating what I find a personally fascinating subject, based on pure curiosity and introspection, with those simply refuse to explore and entertain the idea with open minds.

I'd almost guess the idea makes people feel, uncomfortable somehow? Perhaps the "I", the "ego self", doesn't like the idea of not being the master of all it surveys?

I agree with @Blaze on one thing for sure though, those who feel they wish to be unselfish and compassionate etc without the need to a "soul" or "guilt" or "fear of judgement" etc - to me, they are being genuinely kind because it's done out OF compassion and not fear.

 

[Dar]

Truth is the measure of truth. Effectiveness is the measure of lies, falsehoods and propaganda. It doesn't matter how effective the truth is, it's still the truth. Look at global warming, it's now shown that humanity is 99.9% responsible for it and yet when it was first "discovered", people didn't believe it.

Do whatever you have to to feel comfortable, but don't try to boil hundreds of years of tireless scientific research and development down to some cosmic consciousness. To do so is offensive to the people that dedicate their lives to furthering humanity.

 

[DiogoJ42]

Well, to be picky, humans are only responsible for making global warming faster. It would still happen eventually whether we were here or not... But that's a whole other argument

 

[TheMan]

Truth is the measure of truth. Effectiveness is the measure of lies, falsehoods and propaganda. It doesn't matter how effective the truth is, it's still the truth. Look at global warming, it's now shown that humanity is 99.9% responsible for it and yet when it was first "discovered", people didn't believe it.

Do whatever you have to to feel comfortable, but don't try to boil hundreds of years of tireless scientific research and development down to some cosmic consciousness. To do so is offensive to the people that dedicate their lives to furthering humanity.

Why do you feel the need to separate the two things? I am fascinated by science. They are not defined by the other. I am not remotely saying science doesn't have a place in this world.

If you read my post from earlier you would see that if indeed what I believe on a personal level to be true, is true, then science will one day discover it...

And with the quite peculiar quantum world, I believe that gets ever closer. It's funny how quantum physics even seems to rile a selection of the scientists that discover it.

 

[Martin]

I can't say for sure. But I have Occam's Razor on my side and the burden of proof is yours.

Quantum physics is revealing the complexity of the atomic and subatomic world that ultimately drives the universe, the connection of matter and energy, fields and particles, that kind of thing, it is not about metaphysical souls existing somewhere in the body somehow made of something. If it's all down to quantum physics does that mean my soul is an anti-me and that if we eve touch we'll ennihilate?

Why should extra dimensions exist for us? Even if life is the norm for planets, we're still completely inconsequential to the universe. Until we have any evidence that parts of us exist beyond the three spatial dimensions and time, I'm not getting my hopes up.

I hate to quote Dawkins, but we should be open minded, but not so open minded that our brains fall out.

 

[TheMan]

Why should extra dimensions exist for us? Even if life is the norm for planets, we're still completely inconsequential to the universe. Until we have any evidence that parts of us exist beyond the three spatial dimensions and time, I'm not getting my hopes up..

I didn't say they existed FOR us. I said it's possible we exist in THEM.

This universe doesn't exist FOR us does it? But we still exist within it. Other planes of existence exist, and many upon spectrums of sound/light that we cannot see and has taken years to develop technology to see.

So, I suppose that didn't exist either before?

Following the general direction that science/spirituality have taken down the years, and how spiritual masters particularly I believe the Vedas (would need to check for certainty) described the workings of the universal order long before science caught up - I am sure I found a place with all the references to this but I just don't have it to hand... IF IIRC how exactly would you go about explaining that?

I just went to try and find it, genuinely don't have time to read the Vedas right now but I have put that on my list of to-dos lol!

 

[darren]

i would like to believe in a god but.......

i do believe that before the days of science, people didn't have answers to questions like rain, wind, thunder and lightening, blaming it on a man in the sky gave them comfort.

i think there has to be more than to life than this though, maybe its just my security blanket, not sure, know one knows though. everyone should respect an individuals beliefs.

 

[Martin]

Just because ancient people got some things right doesn't mean they knew better than we do. With all the philosophies that have existed throughout history, some of them are going to be right. Guesses and metaphors are no substitute for real understanding. Why would people from thousands of years ago know more than us because they binged on ayahuasca?

 

[TheMan]

@Blaze I have a lot of respect for you mate but drop the frankly outrageously offensive stance that everyone who had some kind of spiritual knowledge was on drugs!

So far we have, spiritually cannot exist because they used carrot propaganda in the war, and everyone else was on drugs.

Great debate lads. Really raising the bar here.

And this is coming from someone who is just an open minded investigator suggesting we should not be so dismissive to so many reports across so much of time in favour or pure science that itself admits it understands SO LITTLE of what our universe is made of or how it functions.

 

[Dar]

Spirituality can exist, but it's not science. Once there's evidence and investigation, it becomes science. Ancient civilizations first mapped the movement of the stars, but attributed it to their gods that needed appeasement and now we now what makes the stars move with no gods.

 

[TheMan]

Stars don't move. Find me an ancient cultural direct reference where they say they do.

Edit and spirit/soul etc is true, it is undiscovered science whether that sits comfortably with you or not.

 

[Dar]

The Maya and the Stars:
Like the planets, the stars move across the heavens: unlike the planets, they stay in position relative to one another. To the Maya, the stars were less important to their mythos than the sun, moon, Venus and other planets. However, the stars shift seasonally and were used by Maya astronomers to predict when the seasons would come and go, useful for agricultural planning. For example, the rise of the Pleiades in the night sky occurs at about the same time that the rains come to the Maya regions of Central America and southern Mexico. The stars, therefore, were of more practical use than many other aspects of Maya astronomy.

From: http://latinamericanhistory.about.com/od/ancientlatinamerica/p/Ancient-Maya-Astronomy.htm

If it's undiscovered, it's not science, it's conjecture.

 

[TheMan]

All science begins with conjecture lol!!

It's conjecture that breeds discovery, honestly.

And please, give the Mayans a little more credit for goodness sake, talk about interpretation.

"The ancient Maya were accomplished observers of the sky. Using their knowledge of astronomy and mathematics, the ancient Maya developed one of the most accurate calendar systems in human history. The ancient Maya had a fascination with cycles of time. The most commonly known Maya cyclical calendars are the Haab, the Tzolk’in, and the Calendar Round. Aside from these, the Maya also developed the Long Count calendar to chronologically date mythical and historical events. The 13 baktun cycle of the Maya Long Count calendar measures 1,872,000 days or 5,125.366 tropical years."

But yeah....

I suppose they saw the stars by eating a shed load of carrots and taking drugs of course.

Would you like to offer me an explanation as to exactly HOW they measured BACKWARDS in time and FORWARDS that far without any kind of modern mathematical or scientific equipment too?