Monorail Refurbishment

[Deleted member 17985]

The park has not been operating well.


These are only beig done because they were both broken beyond reasonable repair. The only other option would be for them to be removed.

Project Horizon is a major Capex project and, I am sure, has been in progress for many years. I would suggest Bianca's influence on that is limited.
Project Ocean is a welcome addition. I will remind you, however, it is a long way off and 3 flat rides have been removed to make way for one.

Smiler opened over 10 years ago. A lot has changed in 10 years, very little of it has been down to our Bianca.

lol, lots of twists and turns there. Yes, a lot has changed in the past 10 years, and, luckily, I didn't say those changes were all single-handedly down to Bianca, I said to ME it feels like a different park NOW, ie today, 2024, it's operating better now - from the Smiler crash to the slump in visitors to the pandemic to where it is now, it's changed considerably, however only in the past year or two has it felt TO ME like there's love going back into the park, and that view is reflected by commentary here and vloggers etc, it's not a controversial take lol

The park WAS stagnating and it's in a better place now, obviously not where it deserves to be or where you'd like it to be, Chris, but it's in better hands, and some of us prefer to think positively about the future of the theme parks we love, but thank you for taking the time to tell me just how wrong I am to not tear down on enthusiastic, passionate management. I will make use of the ignore function and say no more.

 

[ScottishChris]

To be fair the retro squad have been replaced by 2 rides - Nemesis Sub Terra and Project Ocean

Sub Terra was there but SBNO. Project Ocean isn't actually open yet (or built).

 

[Dave]

What's your reasoning behind thinking Bianca is going to completely turn this park around? People are treating her like she's the third coming of Christ. I'm still not exactly sure what her job even entails?

People focus on Bianca as she is visible, and I think based on her CV she is clearly an experienced attraction leader, I also hear from people that work in the park that she is keen to hear feedback and engages well with the resort staff.

I think the more interesting thing is the take over by Kirby and Varney leaving. That’s where I think we may be seeing some positive change, it’s not guaranteed that this will happen but some of the early signs are positive that the new CEO is keen on guest experience as much as profit.

 

[Josh555]

Sub Terra was there but SBNO. Project Ocean isn't actually open yet (or built).

It wasn’t operating when the retrosquad were brought in (and the opinion from most was that it never would be) it now is operating, therefore when people say they were removed and weren’t replaced with anything it’s incorrect.

I’m not disputing the point that there needs to be more flat wise.

 

[RIPCorky]

People focus on Bianca as she is visible, and I think based on her CV she is clearly an experienced attraction leader, I also hear from people that work in the park that she is keen to hear feedback and engages well with the resort staff.

I think the more interesting thing is the take over by Kirby and Varney leaving. That’s where I think we may be seeing some positive change, it’s not guaranteed that this will happen but some of the early signs are positive that the new CEO is keen on guest experience as much as profit.

Fair enough, however this park probably needed someone to come in with a kick up the rear type of attitude. I'm not so sure the "nice" approach is going to get the park back to where it should be. Claiming it was going to be the "best ever" season was a bit of a mistake IMO because people like to complain when they don't get what was advertised.....

 

[Dave]

Fair enough, however this park probably needed someone to come in with a kick up the rear type of attitude. I'm not so sure the "nice" approach is going to get the park back to where it should be. Claiming it was going to be the "best ever" season was a bit of a mistake IMO because people like to complain when they don't get what was advertised.....

You can be engaging with the team and still have exacting standards. In fact it’s well established that leaders who engage with their teams get a better outcome. I don’t hear that she is a pushover or soft when it comes to standards. I do know that the park has ancient neglected infrastructure and a lack of maintenance staff and that isn’t a quick fix.

We are a week into the season, and most people don’t listen to the marketing bs so i don’t think a passing comment on the video is going to haunt them just yet.

 

[AT86]

Regarding the impact of Bianca vs wider Merlin management changes, to me these are intrinsically linked.

My feeling is that Bianca (or someone of her experience) wouldn’t have taken the divisional director role would it have not been for the change in direction of the company as a whole.

The fact they wanted someone new to come in and make the changes that were needed (and crucially give them a longer term budget to do it) was probably what attracted Bianca to up sticks across the world in the first place.

In contrast the babysitting job of the place in managed decline under Varney and the PLC era would attract an entirely different candidate.

 

[GJMarshy]

Proper investment for me would be getting it run on solar power if not all ready. Two huge roofs that can give you a little tipple of the good sun stuff.

The trains look awful now. I've not been inside one for a few years so dunno the state, but last time it was looking a little worn out.

Shuttle buses are a good idea. The amount needed to run effectively, plus getting qualified drivers would not be worth it for the park in my eyes. You would be aswell just investing in the monorail. Get up to modern standards. I would never go full autonomous. Just be too dangerous.

You might be right on buses depending on driver availability and cost to employ them, but I won't say going driverless is in any way dangerous. Far from it. The DLR in London is a huge mass transit system that has ran successfully since the 1970s moving volumes of traffic on-par with many fully-fledged metro systems. Also more recently (especially since the 2010s) most new-build metro systems are fully autonomous. Take Singapore as a prime example.

As long as there's block systems in place and few points of conflict (where track cross, which they don't on the AT monorail) it's actually far more safe than driver operation. The monorail is basically the curse at alton manor but on bigger rails, and longer with much longer trains. You don't need a driver at all.

 

[rob666]

Mr Pedantic calling.
I waited for it to open, the DLR...in 1987.

 

[Slugjc]

You might be right on buses depending on driver availability and cost to employ them, but I won't say going driverless is in any way dangerous. Far from it. The DLR in London is a huge mass transit system that has ran successfully since the 1970s moving volumes of traffic on-par with many fully-fledged metro systems. Also more recently (especially since the 2010s) most new-build metro systems are fully autonomous. Take Singapore as a prime example.

As long as there's block systems in place and few points of conflict (where track cross, which they don't on the AT monorail) it's actually far more safe than driver operation. The monorail is basically the curse at alton manor but on bigger rails, and longer with much longer trains. You don't need a driver at all.

Having lived in the isle of dogs for a bit, I can confirm 1987 as the opening date. Plus, the DLR still has a member of staff on board at all times, that can take over control of the train at any time and for the obvious emergencies since the stations are unmanned.

Singapore and wherever else probably do have a fully automated system. Still needs people to operate. And on the other side, Singapore is a really large metropolis with an economy worth billions running it. Alton towers is a theme park run by a business that needs to watch the pennies. Having super duper tech may just be really out of budget.

Keep the staff on board. Far safer.

 

[Poisson]

The trains are self driving anyway, staff are safety and door controls.

 

[GJMarshy]

Having lived in the isle of dogs for a bit, I can confirm 1987 as the opening date. Plus, the DLR still has a member of staff on board at all times, that can take over control of the train at any time and for the obvious emergencies since the stations are unmanned.

Singapore and wherever else probably do have a fully automated system. Still needs people to operate. And on the other side, Singapore is a really large metropolis with an economy worth billions running it. Alton towers is a theme park run by a business that needs to watch the pennies. Having super duper tech may just be really out of budget.

Keep the staff on board. Far safer.

I'm fully open to accept I might be wrong here, but employing a guard is far cheaper than a driver. On the DLR it's more of a guard than a driver. By all means keep a member of staff on board who is able to stop/start the train, but the more automation the better. Especially on segregated systems like monorails, that'll save in terms of both capacity and make for more efficient operation.

Any new trains should be walkthrough end-to-end with longitudinal seating to maximise standing room. I think I'm right in saying as long as it isn't tube level crowding many wouldn't mind standing for such a short duration, and would pretty much eliminate queues at both ends.

It needs to operate more like a mass transit system and less like the Skyride. It'll still be an experience either way, monorails will always have that novelty!

 

[jibbsie]

walkthrough end-to-end with longitudinal seating to maximise standing room.

I don't think this will be possible due to the low floor of the monorail, the wheels and bogie assembly are about the height of the seat backs, which are currently between the carrages.

 

[GJMarshy]

I don't think this will be possible due to the low floor of the monorail, the wheels and bogie assembly are about the height of the seat backs, which are currently between the carrages.

Good point, but definitely doesn't make it unachievable. The existing trains are low-floor, during refurbishment it'd be sensible to procure high-floor trains and retrofit the stations to match both platform and ceiling height. The capacity gain for walkthrough trains would be substantial, and most definitely worth it in terms of operational efficiency in the long-run.

 

[Slugjc]

I'm fully open to accept I might be wrong here, but employing a guard is far cheaper than a driver. On the DLR it's more of a guard than a driver. By all means keep a member of staff on board who is able to stop/start the train, but the more automation the better. Especially on segregated systems like monorails, that'll save in terms of both capacity and make for more efficient operation.

Any new trains should be walkthrough end-to-end with longitudinal seating to maximise standing room. I think I'm right in saying as long as it isn't tube level crowding many wouldn't mind standing for such a short duration, and would pretty much eliminate queues at both ends.

It needs to operate more like a mass transit system and less like the Skyride. It'll still be an experience either way, monorails will always have that novelty!

But it's not a mass transit system. It's a simply little system built to move a 1000ish people from point a to point b.

Someone has said, you can't have a walkthrough train.To achieve this would mean spending even further beyond the budget. The current stock would need scrapping altogether and completely new ones built. Both stations would need knocking down to accommodate wider and taller roller stock, both stations are designed around the current trains.

That's before we get into the safety. The rail unions are currently fighting to keep people on trains because it's far safer to have a guard on board and someone who takes over the helm if needs be. Towers would be stupid to take any staff off the trains.

I like your enthusiasm, but we have to think about scale. The monorail operates safely enough as does now. Ok you can improve to newer signalling and controls etc but, it's only really used by a small % of guests. Especially now the path to the entrance to there. For me a simple repaint and new livery for the trains. Get them uniformed and smartened up.

 

[jibbsie]

Good point, but definitely doesn't make it unachievable. The existing trains are low-floor, during refurbishment it'd be sensible to procure high-floor trains and retrofit the stations to match both platform and ceiling height. The capacity gain for walkthrough trains would be substantial, and most definitely worth it in terms of operational efficiency in the long-run.

I don't know if a high floor variant is possible, the trains are low because being lower reduced the height of the center of mass, this reduces the tipping force on the train when traversing corners, I have drawn aproximatly how tall I recall the wheel box being (in green), the height will be a significant increase and would require changing the stations and I am unsure wether the track could handle the increased load of it tipping.


edit, this image shows how tall the wheel box is (the silver box behind the seats

 

[GJMarshy]

I don't know if a high floor variant is possible, the trains are low because being lower reduced the height of the center of mass, this reduces the tipping force on the train when traversing corners, I have drawn aproximatly how tall I recall the wheel box being (in green), the height will be a significant increase and would require changing the stations and I am unsure wether the track could handle the increased load of it tipping.

You may have a really good point here. I forgot just how slim the track actually is! (Tell's you how little attention I pay to the thing in its current state!)

I suppose then the question is either:

a) Scrap it, sell any remains assets with any worth, encourage the walking route and lay on shuttle busses for those who chose not to.

OR

b)Scrap it (It is pretty much life-expired as transport systems go) and *invest* in a brand new system built to a higher spec. (You might get away with single track as long as each station has two platforms, given you'd get higher speeds and far higher capacities) On quiet days you might only need to run one train back and forth (trains would be much longer, faster and walk-through)

Both are really the only options towers have at this point. It really is very close to being life-expired, and there's not much more you can do to keep the existing system (as is) alive without significant investment and rebuilding. We might sadly be looking at bendy-buses & an enhanced walking route if it isn't seen as a priority.

 

[jibbsie]

You may have a really good point here. I forgot just how slim the track actually is! (Tell's you how little attention I pay to the thing in its current state!)

I suppose then the question is either:

a) Scrap it, sell any remains assets with any worth, encourage the walking route and lay on shuttle busses for those who chose not to.

OR

b)Scrap it (It is pretty much life-expired as transport systems go) and *invest* in a brand new system built to a higher spec. (You might get away with single track as long as each station has two platforms, given you'd get higher speeds and far higher capacities) On quiet days you might only need to run one train back and forth (trains would be much longer, faster and walk-through)

Both are really the only options towers have at this point. It really is very close to being life-expired, and there's not much more you can do to keep the existing system (as is) alive without significant investment and rebuilding. We might sadly be looking at bendy-buses & an enhanced walking route if it isn't seen as a priority.

why do they have to scrap it, assuming the track is in good condition I would argue a good option is just cleaning up the current opperations either by getting new stock or re painting/remodeling the current trains in addition if they were to add gates on the stations they would be able to improve the capacity.

 

[GJMarshy]

Just to help visualise what the alternative *might* be, this shows a 1,600m route (1mi) connecting the resort and car parks with the park entrance. Both stations are longer at 100m and support two platforms with switch-tracks onto a single-rail route connecting the two. At quiet times it's unlikely you'd even need to use the twice-tracks (saving maintenance/operational cost) as 100m walk-through trains shuttling a 1mi route should more than suffice on a moderately busy day. The extra platforms would be reserved for peak days. System would be high-floor built to the standard of modern mass-transit monorails produced by Bombardier, with speeds of up to 50mph (curve radius 200m+ to accommodate this)

It's sure pricey, but if buses are a no-go and the park want to retain the "magic" this is the way forward:



*Or you could just build a segregated land-train lane following roughly the same route. Disney does this at Disneyland California and it works just fine for them! I guess it depends on how much Towers (and its guests) value the monorail experience, and if they could successfully market it as some sort of new experience.

 

[jibbsie]

if they were to replace it I would imagine they would follow the current route and use some of the guide ways you find in airports like so: https://www.alstom.com/solutions/ro...efficient-solutions-urban-and-airport-transit,

I would imagine they would try to keep the monorail, I believe europa park recently extended theirs (it is the same model) and I think mack was able to do it and they were now extending it to their water park, alton probably could get mack in to retrack it if required, I would imagine it would be cheaper, keep the same historical ride and would probably take less time and reduce interuptions to the service (over a new system)

edit: I am pretty sure bombardear transport was taken over by alstom