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Ride Access Pass and Disabled Access - 2024 Discussion

Skyscraper said:
Yeah that's a fair point, the only option I can think of of splitting the RAP prebook system into ambulant and non ambulant, that way those in wheelchairs would always be guaranteed a slot. Obviously it wouldn't be 100% safe from abuse though.
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Problem is, how many RAP users are in wheelchairs and how many are not. I'd hazard a guess at it being 75% ambulant and 25% non-ambulant, so it would be an even smaller number of slots available for the larger group of people.

Skyscraper said:
A good start would be limiting everyone to one pre-book at a time per park, instead of three. But no doubt the MAP brigade would throw all the toys out of their pram if that was the case.
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I wonder if this would make a difference. We multi book because you can't get slots for some parks for weeks/months so it would be interesting to see if a one booking limit would ease that issue or would not - if it didn't then it would severely limit how many times you could visit in a year.

One problem we find is that different members of staff managing the queues let different numbers of RAP groups onto a ride. For example we have occasions on Dragons Fury where it would be one RAP group per every 4 from the standard line, and then other occasions where it would be one RAP group per 7 or 8 from the standard line. Or on Tiger Rock there would be one or two RAP groups let through each time, but on another day it would be 4 or 5 - there needs to be some kind of consistency.
 
Bowser said:
Yes this is what happens at Chessington and Legoland with the digital systems, though it's not without problems as previously discussed.
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If I remember (I’m probably wildly wrong so happy to be corrected) LEGOLAND release about 25% more then AT.
 
I'm trying to limit the amount i may sound offensive here..

We queued for Hyperia in the single riders during a very terrible rainy day. on several occasions the ride announcements told us that they may have to seize operation, during this time dispatches were very slow and it did in fact close for a good hour.

not one person left the RAP queue in this time..

Again i'm trying to avoid sounding offensive but you would have thought that the RAP queue would have emptied, clearly they were okay with standing and waiting for this period of time just like anybody else in the main queues

I really do feel for Merlin with this situation that has developed. very difficult for them to alter now. but i do strongly believe that queue times at all of the Merlin parks have vastly increased over the past year or so and i cant help but feel its increasing because of RAP.
 
Alphe86 said:
If I remember (I’m probably wildly wrong so happy to be corrected) LEGOLAND release about 25% more then AT.
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I'm not sure tbh, i've not seen the numbers that were shared for a while so can't remember but the issue with Legoland is RAP is shared with FastTrack in both queue line and digital booking so it's a very different system in that sense.

Bennobo said:
not one person left the RAP queue in this time..
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Obviously one thing to remember is typically only one member of a RAP group is the eligible member so in a line of say 20, 16 will likely be fine to queue (and supporting the one)

There's also the element of the unknown. Ok you can handle waiting for 10 minutes... ok 5 more minutes... ok are you able to wait it out despite the pain and then go home? Versus an advertised queue of 60 minutes which one wouldn't enter in the first place or an announcement that the ride will now be closed for a stated amount of time. That's just an example scenario.

Equally your point is valid, we have all seen people taking advantage of the system in various ways and the more adult orientated or popular rides seem to attract the worst culprits for it. Without making the qualification process more stringent there's not much that can be done about that.
 
TPick said:
Problem is, how many RAP users are in wheelchairs and how many are not. I'd hazard a guess at it being 75% ambulant and 25% non-ambulant, so it would be an even smaller number of slots available for the larger group of people.
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I would have two completely separate booking systems as ambulant and non ambulant use different exits, so a separate number of slots would be set for each one.
 
I would also introduce a CBeebies/WODW only pass as well as those users won’t have any impact elsewhere and could be offered even when the normal RAP is full
 
Skyscraper said:
I would have two completely separate booking systems as ambulant and non ambulant use different exits, so a separate number of slots would be set for each one.
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OK. Would you keep the existing number of slots to be available for ambulant and then create new slots for non-ambulant. Or would you keep the existing number of slots only, but make more of those available only to non-ambulant (so reducing the number available to ambulant)?
 
TPick said:
OK. Would you keep the existing number of slots to be available for ambulant and then create new slots for non-ambulant. Or would you keep the existing number of slots only, but make more of those available only to non-ambulant (so reducing the number available to ambulant)?
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I'd create new slots, that's what I was saying.
 
imanautie said:
Problem is playing disability top trumps is a questionable practice, espically when merlin themselfs admit there are ambulant disabled guests who need rap.
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He's not playing disability top trumps. He is suggesting that non-ambulant RAP users have different physical access needs, when compared to ambulant RAP users.

If you go to a cinema, or a concert, and you have mobility issues, it's generally understood that there is a reserved area for you. You usually can only book these seats / areas if you have a physical disability (or have wheelchair needs). These spaces are usually found in an area where ambulant guests, with additional needs, can also access and book. Whilst there is a total allocation for additional needs space, there is a separate ring fenced allocation for those with non-ambulant assistance.
 
My first post i've not been to a theme park for over 15 years till this year so don't know the details of RAP what i did notice is they let alot of people through in that queue on Hyperia
 
Skyscraper said:
Yeah that's a fair point, the only option I can think of of splitting the RAP prebook system into ambulant and non ambulant, that way those in wheelchairs would always be guaranteed a slot. Obviously it wouldn't be 100% safe from abuse though.

I just don't see what other changes could be made, I think they need to start from scratch during this coming closed season.
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Yes it needs to be split but eligibility then needs to be restricted further on the ambulant side and the system for non-ambulant guests should simply provide access to an area (with seating, toilets and space for wheelchairs but otherwise with no additional access to attractions compared to the main queue) in which they can wait the full length of time that guests entering the main queue will have to wait.
The ambulant system should then be restricted to those with severe learning disabilities who are unable to understand the need to queue and who are unable to be left unattended in the parks. Unfortunately whilst it would be great if everyone could ride without queues this is not the reality and those who understand the concept of queuing but find it hard to manage probably need to choose between managing the queues (with the help of coping mechanisms or carers where appropriate) or not attending due to the overall theme park experience being unenjoyable when the need to queue is considered.
At the end of the day basically nobody (disabled or not) considers lengthy queues to be a meaningful attraction in themselves and plenty of non-disabled people choose to either not attend due to the time spent queuing or spend significant sums in order to reduce the amount of time spent in queues so I don’t think it’s unfair to suggest that those who understand the need for people to queue should have the choice of queuing, paying to skip queues where available, or not attending regardless of their disability status.
 
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Autism isn't a learning disability and there's plenty of autistics who have a genuine need to use rap and similar systems, disabled guests shouldn't have to hide out of public experiences because merlin do not backup their staff enough to confidently enforce reasonable rules.
 
imanautie said:
Autism isn't a learning disability and there's plenty of autistics who have a genuine need to use rap and similar systems, disabled guests shouldn't have to hide out of public experiences because merlin do not backup their staff enough to confidently enforce reasonable rules.
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I’m autistic and can queue for as long as I need to, as long as people don’t get too close to me constantly.
My boy on the other hand, wouldn’t last more than 10 mins.
I would be RAP eligible but don’t take it as I don’t need it
 
imanautie said:
Autism isn't a learning disability and there's plenty of autistics who have a genuine need to use rap and similar systems, disabled guests shouldn't have to hide out of public experiences because merlin do not backup their staff enough to confidently enforce reasonable rules.
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The RAP system should never have allowed queue free access to rides as it was never going to sustainable as more and more people realised that they (or a family member) could qualify. That being said it is clearly completely unacceptable to remove access to the parks from those who wouldn’t understand as to why they could no longer visit if a queue free option wasn’t available which is why I would maintain access to a similar system for those with severe learning disabilities (many of whom are also autistic).
Whilst people with Autism (if they don’t also have learning difficulties) may find queuing extremely challenging they can understand that queuing is a necessary part of theme park operation and can make their own decisions as to whether they can cope with this in a way that those with severe learning difficulties cannot. Quite frankly I also think those people who claim to be completely unable to queue for mental health or autism but who are able to visit highly crowded theme parks independently are highly likely to be exaggerating their needs for personal benefit.
 
Qwerty123 said:
The RAP system should never have allowed queue free access to rides as it was never going to sustainable as more and more people realised that they (or a family member) could qualify. That being said it is clearly completely unacceptable to remove access to the parks from those who wouldn’t understand as to why they could no longer visit if a queue free option wasn’t available which is why I would maintain access to a similar system for those with severe learning disabilities (many of whom are also autistic).
Whilst people with Autism (if they don’t also have learning difficulties) may find queuing extremely challenging they can understand that queuing is a necessary part of theme park operation and can make their own decisions as to whether they can cope with this in a way that those with severe learning difficulties cannot. Quite frankly I also think those people who claim to be completely unable to queue for mental health or autism but who are able to visit highly crowded theme parks independently are highly likely to be exaggerating their needs for personal benefit.
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I have to say I find your comments quite ableist and incendiary. I'm not sure what qualifies you to give your views on this matter, as you haven't said that you've got any personal experience of this condition, either for yourself or through supporting a family member. I notice as well that this is only your second post on the forum and you've not yet contributed to any other discussions about Alton Towers or any other parks, so I'm not really sure why you're here?

As a neurodivergent person myself, with many others in my acquaintance, I do have my own opinions about the importance of finding a balance between developing coping strategies that enable one to access services in the usual way, and being afforded a few adjustments that are intended to make stressful situations more manageable. Privately I worry that too many autistic children today are being shielded from opportunities to develop healthy coping strategies and will struggle to live independent lives as a result, but that's a pretty big conversation about child development and probably not something that can be covered usefully in this space.

The fact that you can't see the difference between visiting a busy park, where you are free to roam around and find quiet spaces and being trapped in a queue line surrounded by strangers you can't escape from suggests you don't really understand autism (or anxiety) and how it can affect people. I also find your argument that people who find certain situations difficult should effectively be barred from those experiences pretty insulting.

I feel as though this is going off topic now and not heading in a particularly useful direction, so before the admins get involved perhaps we should steer this discussion back to how Merlin can make their accessibility systems actually work for the people that need them.
 
Tbh I think we’ve gone round in circles more times than I can remember about how Merlin could or should improve RAP.

Not that I’m suggesting we shut down debate and I’m as guilty as anyone for perpetuating said discussion but obviously we can’t influence the system from here.

That said this thread is perhaps best used for offering advice, news and information on the various RAP systems rather than endlessly descending into the same arguments which inevitably become offensive.

Whilst the introduction of a capacity limit has been frustrating for some, it is overall an improvement on the 2023 onsite experience. Hopefully Merlin continue to modify and we have some tweaks announced for 2025.
 
Bowser said:
Whilst the introduction of a capacity limit has been frustrating for some, it is overall an improvement on the 2023 onsite experience. Hopefully Merlin continue to modify and we have some tweaks announced for 2025.
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In the spirit of such a discussion, what do people think some immediate low hanging changes could be to improve the system overall? I'll throw in some suggestions.
  • Hotel Booking guarantees a RAP slot for eligible party members: - I'm aware that this does introduce a pay for RAP access element, but the parks should be guaranteed their RAP eligible hotel guests park entry when booking an accomodation stay.
  • Merge attraction and RAP booking portals: - Allow RAP holders to book their visit and RAP slot in the same flow. Two systems increases the chance of error. It also leads to scenarios where people can book RAP, but find there are no attraction slots left, or vice versa.
  • Easier editing/management of RAP booking: - @Bowser has mentioned a few times how awful changing a RAP slot, or cancelling it, can be. This should be easier.
  • Transparent cancellation window: - Cancellations should face no penalty up until 9am, when the park physically opens, on the visit day.
  • Advertise, explain and enforce no-show penalties: - Linking RAP slots to a booking allows the park to see who's visiting and who isn't. Enforce a three strike policy on no-shows.
  • Have a consistent, but smaller, booking window: - People should be able to book up to 31 days in advance, rolling, for a RAP slot. With guaranteed slots for hotel bookings already in place, this gives ample amount of time for people to book a little in advance. It prevents people in the know of seasonal events, months in advance, of block booking out special event days.
  • Release cancellations in real-time: - Release cancellation slots in real time for rebooking, or on the day of a visit ping people in the park the moment a slot becomes available. Randomly allocated reserve list.
I had thought about a refundable deposit for a RAP slot, of about £5, but I'm not sure this would actually work in reality. Given the nature of RAP, and what it's needed for, you're going to have to have a pretty flexible cancellation policy. It would seem sensible to allow cancellations up to 24 hours in advance, and then not fund the deposit after that, but some people can only commit to a visit on the morning of. A deposit system would put them at a disadvantage. Additionally, if you had three bookings in rotation throughout the year, and you managed them properly, that's a perpetual £15 that you'll never see. The amount is also so low that being without it doesn't provide an incentive to actually visit. Any higher and you're pricing vulnerable people out.

Just some initial ideas. I'd be keen to know what people who use the system think would work, to improve their visits.
 
I don’t use the system myself, but from my outsider’s perspective, an obvious thing to do in my mind would be to integrate the RAP system and the ticket booking system/MAP prebook system, or at very least release both at the same time.

The start of this season was a complete palaver in this regard, because lots of people had already booked tickets for Nemesis’ opening day months in advance, but were unable to get RAP for the day when the passes eventually released.

If they integrated the two systems in some capacity, then they wouldn’t have this issue. At very least, they should maybe prompt people to add RAP to their booking (in the same vein as, say, the parking tickets) and let them check availability before they book their tickets or MAP reservations.
 
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