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Russia vs NATO
- Thread starter GaryH
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Alsty
TS Member
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It seems likely he has been killed as both Wagner and Russia have said as much. From the BBC:
Russia's Federal Air Transport Agency has included Yevgeny Prigozhin's name on a list of those "declared as travelling on board the crashed plane".
and also
A Telegram channel believed to be linked to Yevgeny Prigozhin has said the Wagner leader is dead. Grey Zone said he was "killed as a result of actions by traitors of Russia".
The BBC has not been able to verify this information.
Russia's Federal Air Transport Agency has included Yevgeny Prigozhin's name on a list of those "declared as travelling on board the crashed plane".
and also
A Telegram channel believed to be linked to Yevgeny Prigozhin has said the Wagner leader is dead. Grey Zone said he was "killed as a result of actions by traitors of Russia".
The BBC has not been able to verify this information.
Would you ever believe anything either side would say though?
May be an agreed vanishing point, we will never know, even if limited dna is "found", I wouldn't believe a word.
The first casualty of war is truth.
Alsty
TS Member
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No I don't trust either of them, but because they are enemies making the same claim it makes it more likely to be true in my head.
You make a good point though. What's to say Prigozhin didn't know it was coming? He sets up a decoy with a lookalike/fake docs, Russia downs the plane and think they got him, Wagner confirm they got him, meanwhile he actually isn't on the plane and now can live safely in exile knowing Russia aren't looking for him anymore.
At that point though you might as well come up with any counter-narrative. There's no way to prove or disprove anything
You make a good point though. What's to say Prigozhin didn't know it was coming? He sets up a decoy with a lookalike/fake docs, Russia downs the plane and think they got him, Wagner confirm they got him, meanwhile he actually isn't on the plane and now can live safely in exile knowing Russia aren't looking for him anymore.
At that point though you might as well come up with any counter-narrative. There's no way to prove or disprove anything
It’s Ukraine Independence Day today and their Twitter feed has been posting a video for each country which is helping them. The videos are really good and well worth watching them all… here’s the Uk one. The others can be found under this Twitter handle
From: https://x.com/defenceu/status/1694682685606711730?s=46&t=0iTQigzO9N0GVmw1q20v8w
From: https://x.com/defenceu/status/1694682685606711730?s=46&t=0iTQigzO9N0GVmw1q20v8w
shakey
TS Member
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Yep, but there really is no way of knowing for sure if the Wagner leader was on board.
He very probably was but it wouldn't be a total shock if he had done some sort of deal to fake his death .
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BarryZola
TS Member
To be fair, if Putin was after me, the first thing I'd consider doing would be to fake my own death. Nothing should come as a shock in this whole situation. But yeah, unless there is a Prighozin Episode 2 where he comes back out of hiding from a remote village in Uruguay in several years time and leads a successful mission to overthrow the last remnants of Moscow's leadership and declares himself supreme leader, I suppose we'd never know.
Dad’s army to make a comeback?
Honestly - Seems once again countries are walking head first into potential conflict rather than try and resolve it. The world has learnt nothing from the past.
I know a lot of this talk is to bolster NATO and prevent Russia/China from thinking about it in the future but I can’t be the only one who has noticed this huge shift in tone lately. Grant Snapps only 3 days ago said we have moved from a post war era to a pre war one.
Given all the cuts to our military the UK would be like firing a pea shooter at Russia and China if war did break out unless they drastically ramp up funding.
Question is - Does anyone think Trump (who is pretty much guaranteed to be the next US president - as scary as that seems) would be able to stop it or will he accelerate the pace to conflict?
Britain must train citizen army, military chief warns
General Sir Patrick Sanders points to threat of Russia as he warns of UK's lack of readiness for war.
www.bbc.co.uk
Honestly - Seems once again countries are walking head first into potential conflict rather than try and resolve it. The world has learnt nothing from the past.
I know a lot of this talk is to bolster NATO and prevent Russia/China from thinking about it in the future but I can’t be the only one who has noticed this huge shift in tone lately. Grant Snapps only 3 days ago said we have moved from a post war era to a pre war one.
Given all the cuts to our military the UK would be like firing a pea shooter at Russia and China if war did break out unless they drastically ramp up funding.
Question is - Does anyone think Trump (who is pretty much guaranteed to be the next US president - as scary as that seems) would be able to stop it or will he accelerate the pace to conflict?
Matt.GC
TS Member
Can you think of a single year you've been alive where the world hasn't been walking head first in to potential conflict? Because I can't. I was born when the UK was at war with Argentina. The UK, US, Russia and China have all been at war various times since then. Not playing down how serious current events are, but what else has changed in almost half a century? Not even the hyperbole it seems, and I say this as a doom monger myself. Grant Shapps spouting irresponsible nonsense, the guy who also still claims his party can win a general election?Dad’s army to make a comeback?
Britain must train citizen army, military chief warns
General Sir Patrick Sanders points to threat of Russia as he warns of UK's lack of readiness for war.www.bbc.co.uk
Honestly - Seems once again countries are walking head first into potential conflict rather than try and resolve it. The world has learnt nothing from the past.
I know a lot of this talk is to bolster NATO and prevent Russia/China from thinking about it in the future but I can’t be the only one who has noticed this huge shift in tone lately. Grant Snapps only 3 days ago said we have moved from a post war era to a pre war one.
Given all the cuts to our military the UK would be like firing a pea shooter at Russia and China if war did break out unless they drastically ramp up funding.
Question is - Does anyone think Trump (who is pretty much guaranteed to be the next US president - as scary as that seems) would be able to stop it or will he accelerate the pace to conflict?
The UK alone vs any of the countries you've mentioned has always been like firing a pea shooter. That hasn't changed either. Yes our armed forces are seriously depleted now in terms of numbers, and sometimes also equipment. Won't defend the cuts. But that's not how military alliances such as NATO works. In both our lifetimes, that's always been the case. You could double the size of it and it would still be the case.
Although I agree that Trump is a danger, it's worth noting that in his first presidency, his bark was always worth than his bite. Besides, why on earth do you think Trump is guaranteed to win the presidency? He's trailing Biden on the polls and Democrats fear Nikki Haley more as she is ahead of Biden but looks very unlikely to win the nomination.
Matt N
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I won’t lie, seeing the tabloids talking about conscription earlier absolutely terrified me… reading into some of these articles a little more, it seems that this man isn’t advocating conscription, and the UK government still maintains that there are no plans to reintroduce conscription, but it does still seem odd that the talk about war suddenly seems to have intensified. “Conscription UK” was trending earlier…
Has anything bad happened in Ukraine recently to warrant this intensification in tone from some authority figures? I’ll be very honest, I’m feeling very anxious about the prospect of WW3 following some of these rather morbid words and headlines…
Has anything bad happened in Ukraine recently to warrant this intensification in tone from some authority figures? I’ll be very honest, I’m feeling very anxious about the prospect of WW3 following some of these rather morbid words and headlines…
James
TS Founding Member
I feel Trump may put more pressure on Ukraine to come to a negotiation, either allowing Russia to hold Crimea or Ukraine to promise to not join NATO. The war has become stagnant for some time. Russia has adjusted its economy quite well to sustain this war indefinitely, the rest of Europe (UK included) has not and military underspending is a common theme throughout European countries.
I think Trump will either go and speak to the parties involved and try to sort out something to bring peace or just go crazy making threats and escalate the whole situation. The guy is just so unpredictable.
I can’t believe the people of the US are voting him in again in all honesty!
I can’t believe the people of the US are voting him in again in all honesty!
BigT
TS Member
Trump will pull all support for Ukraine, he’s already said that, America first.
He’s no fan of NATO either as he sees it as the US is spending money to defend the Europeans when they won’t, both Germany and France are below the 2% of GDP that countries are supposed to spend on defence to be a member.
It’s quite possible that Trump would pull the US out of NATO.
He’s no fan of NATO either as he sees it as the US is spending money to defend the Europeans when they won’t, both Germany and France are below the 2% of GDP that countries are supposed to spend on defence to be a member.
It’s quite possible that Trump would pull the US out of NATO.
BarryZola
TS Member
I would just advise all youngsters to refuse to enlist up until a time that our leadership provide a country that works for them, rather than against them. Our leaders have done nothing but put things in place that make your lives harder for as long as I can remember. They can't lock you all up in jail for refusing. Hell, because of their poor leadership, they don't even have enough prison places currently for all of the people that actually deserve to be in them. Tell 'em to swivel. I would, if they got up to age of 41. Chances are, any country that we 'lost' to wouldn't run this country any more pathetically than our lot have for a couple of decades, at least.
That’s a very scary thought - if he did that I think it would be a free for all. French are irreverent regardless what they spend - they always surrender before the fight actually begins!
ScottishChris
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I'm seeing a lot of bumf online about conscription. I hope it never happens, however, if a country such as Russia decided to go on the wider offencive you wonder what the response could be.
You look at what Russia has done in this conflict. They have literally 'stolen' thousands of Ukrainian children - which is horrific at best. They are sending their own troops to front lines under equipt to simply ware down the front lines knowing they will be killed. They indiscriminately target civilians across the country. They are forcing Ukrainians to transfer citizenship. Ultimately they are doing this because the Russian government believes the Ukraine (and everything in it) is theirs. If they succeed in what they are trying to achieve - what happens next? I totally believe that if Putin senses a victory he will not stop with the Ukraine. There is a very ominous example from the 1930's of what happens when western powers capitulate and accept a land grab.
The only real options to completely avoid the spread of hostilities (and escalation to a wider field) is to keep Putin busy in the Ukraine and allow him to weaken his own military and hope the resentment from ordinary Russians spreads or to grow world condemnation of the Russian aggression.
On a further note, I am amazed that if our country, our way of life and our families were at risk so many people seem intent to refuse to stand up to protect them. Yes, our government is crap... but it is better than being ruled by Russia.
You look at what Russia has done in this conflict. They have literally 'stolen' thousands of Ukrainian children - which is horrific at best. They are sending their own troops to front lines under equipt to simply ware down the front lines knowing they will be killed. They indiscriminately target civilians across the country. They are forcing Ukrainians to transfer citizenship. Ultimately they are doing this because the Russian government believes the Ukraine (and everything in it) is theirs. If they succeed in what they are trying to achieve - what happens next? I totally believe that if Putin senses a victory he will not stop with the Ukraine. There is a very ominous example from the 1930's of what happens when western powers capitulate and accept a land grab.
The only real options to completely avoid the spread of hostilities (and escalation to a wider field) is to keep Putin busy in the Ukraine and allow him to weaken his own military and hope the resentment from ordinary Russians spreads or to grow world condemnation of the Russian aggression.
On a further note, I am amazed that if our country, our way of life and our families were at risk so many people seem intent to refuse to stand up to protect them. Yes, our government is crap... but it is better than being ruled by Russia.