Because NATO is already at war with Russia now the US and UK are allowing their missiles to strike inside Russian territory. And also not to forget this is a war inside Europe. If the west backs down over Ukraine then what country is next in line?
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Russia vs NATO
- Thread starter GaryH
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Citation very much needed...again!
NATO homepage...
NATO is not at war with Russia.
Clear enough?
We might as well cut the BS Rob - the UK and US are allowing their missiles to strike targets in Russia. The US is the lead country in NATO. Whether we like it or not, indirectly NATO is at war with Russia else NATO countries (US and UK) would not be allowing their weapons to strike Russian territory.
The message on the NATO homepage is as useful as the message from Starmer today that we are not at war with Russia (but we are attacking it by allowing Ukraine to fire Storm Shadows onto Russian territory).
Yes you could say that - either way the guns, ammunition, intelligence, satellite imagery, targeting co ordinates, tanks, F-16s, missiles, etc etc have all come and continue to come from NATO countries.
It’s a bit like Russia continuing to call it a “special military operation” when the rest of the world can openly see it’s a war.
Squiggs
TS Team
Yes, I think the second point is well-made, there are a lot of euphemisms at play in this situation.
However, I think there's an 'additional' missing from the first statement. It remains the fact the Russia are the aggressor here, they have invaded Ukraine. The reason NATO countries are supplying additional...
is because Russia invaded Ukraine.
If we can’t laugh about it then what else can we do. Nothing we can do about it.
I actually disagree with this personally. Though going in full scale would sure as hell decimate Russia, it would also push us closer to nuclear war. NATO in its full power would decimate Russia and if Moscow was surrounded I fear The Kremlin would press the nuclear button..
The current situation is bad but the offensive in Kursk is in ways making us more confident in Ukraine. The fact Ukraine has a foothold on Kursk (Russian Territory) and Russia has struggled to take it back shows that their army is not sufficiently trained neither is it sustainable. Russia is losing troops at a time where their male population is rapidly declining anyway, the country will reach a breaking point and probably severe domestic issues. A war of attrition is one Ukraine can win with Western backing in my opinion, and even Russia gains anything, they would of lost thousands of men to which already stings their declining population. Sure they have a lot of manpower compared to Ukraine, but recently it seems like a lot of them are just fodder and are being lost at insane rates.
Ukraine can win this, though with agony and many more years. Russia could make some Territorial gains, but I think by the time the war is over, Russia will be a shell of itself. Their male population was still recovering from WW2 even in 2022, so imagine the population crisis after several years of war. Ukraine has similar problems but the main focus for them is training their troops to a very high standard to beat the cannon fodder that russia has been sending recently. So yeah I believe NATO on the ground is an idea that would solve the war, but lead to even more deaths and suffering.
Is further backing likely from the main contributor to Nato when Trump gets in office?
Probably not.
The current situation is unsustainable, especially when the war is between two nations which are historically corrupt to the core.
Ukraine still has a lot of Russian speakers who would not be over concerned with a "re-takeover" of areas, as the west wasn't to concerned with Crimea...it has been a nation for only thirty years, with Russian roots, and many native Russians living there.
War on the ground does not stop death and suffering, it increases it.
The chance of NATO sending in ground troops is extremely unlikely, again, top of their homepage...
NATO IS NOT AT WAR WITH RUSSIA.
...and I don't want our shakey starting World War Three either...
Bloody argumentative tykes.
NATO would never push the nuclear button as first strike, they know it would instigate that favourite of TLA's
M A D.
Probably not.
The current situation is unsustainable, especially when the war is between two nations which are historically corrupt to the core.
Ukraine still has a lot of Russian speakers who would not be over concerned with a "re-takeover" of areas, as the west wasn't to concerned with Crimea...it has been a nation for only thirty years, with Russian roots, and many native Russians living there.
War on the ground does not stop death and suffering, it increases it.
The chance of NATO sending in ground troops is extremely unlikely, again, top of their homepage...
NATO IS NOT AT WAR WITH RUSSIA.
...and I don't want our shakey starting World War Three either...
Bloody argumentative tykes.
NATO would never push the nuclear button as first strike, they know it would instigate that favourite of TLA's
M A D.
shakey
TS Member
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Many Ukrainians speak Russian that is true but that doesn't mean they want to be under Russian control. I suspect only a very small minority of the pre war residents in the areas that Putin has unilaterally claimed to be Russian actually wanted to be part of Russia.
Putins propaganda may say otherwise of course.
As for the war, Ukraine cannot keep fighting indefinitely and they need much more help.
We are yet to see what Trump intends to do but whatever he decides, the rest of the world needs to step up . Putin has to either be defeated on the battlefield or overthrown by his own countrymen, or both.
Putins propaganda may say otherwise of course.
As for the war, Ukraine cannot keep fighting indefinitely and they need much more help.
We are yet to see what Trump intends to do but whatever he decides, the rest of the world needs to step up . Putin has to either be defeated on the battlefield or overthrown by his own countrymen, or both.
Matt.GC
TS Member
Ukraine won't win. The simple reason being that they are almost totally reliant on the US.
That's the problem when your military strength is reliant on another country (like we are in the UK, with our feable hollowed out armed forces). That other country can just have an election that you have no say in. New leadership comes and that's your defenses gone.
Trump will be the democratically elected President of the USA. He will have executive power over that country and whom it sends it's weaponry to. If he decides to turn the taps off and hang Ukraine out to dry, then that's what will happen. It won't be Ukraine themselves, or even other allies that give territory away to Putin. It'll be the USA.
I'm not as certain as other however that will happen. Trump and Putin are both self-obsessed narcissists who have a strained relationship with the truth. We know that Trump has little appetite for supporting Ukraine, but he's unpredictable. If Putin pisses him off enough, he strikes me as the kind of guy that's so temperamental he could well flip and pump more arms into Ukraine than ever before. Zelenski seems keen to cozy up to Trump and do a deal, and Trump has previously said he'd give Ukraine enough arms to destroy Russia a mere few months ago. When you have a narcissist Man Child who makes up lies about immigrants eating cats and dogs, and draws lines in felt-tip on COVID graphs, there's no telling where his mind is at.
That's the problem when your military strength is reliant on another country (like we are in the UK, with our feable hollowed out armed forces). That other country can just have an election that you have no say in. New leadership comes and that's your defenses gone.
Trump will be the democratically elected President of the USA. He will have executive power over that country and whom it sends it's weaponry to. If he decides to turn the taps off and hang Ukraine out to dry, then that's what will happen. It won't be Ukraine themselves, or even other allies that give territory away to Putin. It'll be the USA.
I'm not as certain as other however that will happen. Trump and Putin are both self-obsessed narcissists who have a strained relationship with the truth. We know that Trump has little appetite for supporting Ukraine, but he's unpredictable. If Putin pisses him off enough, he strikes me as the kind of guy that's so temperamental he could well flip and pump more arms into Ukraine than ever before. Zelenski seems keen to cozy up to Trump and do a deal, and Trump has previously said he'd give Ukraine enough arms to destroy Russia a mere few months ago. When you have a narcissist Man Child who makes up lies about immigrants eating cats and dogs, and draws lines in felt-tip on COVID graphs, there's no telling where his mind is at.
Matt N
TS Member
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One thing I do think about Donald Trump is that over the years, he’s shown a tendency to say a lot of things and not really follow through with them. He strikes me as a man who speaks before engaging his brain, and says things for the sake of saying them.
For this reason, I agree with @Matt.GC in perhaps being sceptical that Donald Trump will necessarily pull US support for Ukraine as many think he will. The man can talk a big talk, but his previous track record of big talk suggests that he often doesn’t follow through on much of his big talk.
He hasn’t even explicitly said that he would pull the US out of NATO or pull Ukraine support. To my knowledge, he simply said that he would pull out of NATO if the other countries in Europe didn’t pay their fair share. He said similar things during his first term, and the US stayed a firm stalwart of NATO.
With that being said, I also agree that Trump is unpredictable. He could completely surprise us.
For this reason, I agree with @Matt.GC in perhaps being sceptical that Donald Trump will necessarily pull US support for Ukraine as many think he will. The man can talk a big talk, but his previous track record of big talk suggests that he often doesn’t follow through on much of his big talk.
He hasn’t even explicitly said that he would pull the US out of NATO or pull Ukraine support. To my knowledge, he simply said that he would pull out of NATO if the other countries in Europe didn’t pay their fair share. He said similar things during his first term, and the US stayed a firm stalwart of NATO.
With that being said, I also agree that Trump is unpredictable. He could completely surprise us.
Matt.GC
TS Member
Absolutely this.
I'm inclined to think that he will indeed put Ukraine up for the long jump. But I don't think it's a guarantee, and I don't think Trump even knows what he wants to do himself.
I think the most likely outcome is that things won't stay as they are now. He'll either surrender massive swaths of Ukraine to the Russians, or he'll arm the Ukrainians to the teeth. I don't think there will be an in-between. He likes to do deals, and he'll do whatever he thinks will make him feel like he himself has won. That'll either be beating Putin, or beating those pesky Europeans. It's not even America first, but Trump first. If he wins, that's all that matters.
It cannot be underestimated how similar Putin thinks, and this is what makes the situation so unpredictable. Putin is also crazy and hell bent on winning. Both like to win, both lie alot, both manipulate people. Trump doesn't have the appetite within his own party or among his core supporters for continuing this war, but does have the funds and resources to do so. The opposite is true for Putin, he's ensured there's appetite with an iron fist, but his resources are depleted and his armed forces are looking like a laughing stock.
This will all come down to personal ego. If both men can go back to their people and look like a Billy Big Bollocks then they've both won. There's a deal to me made. The man who stopped the war, and the man who won it. They'll sell it like they always do.
The feelings of, and diplomacy with, countries that look increasingly pathetic like our own, the French, the Germans, and Ukrainians themselves, don't matter here.
We're millions of miles away from nuclear war. The Russians know that their country will be wiped off the face of the earth if this ever happened, and the Americans know that there'd be no one left to do business with if other allied countries were obliterated. Both countries also have protocols which stops a crazed leader pushing a button or giving an order in isolation.
Whilst I don't feel safe having Putin in the Kremlin and Trump in the Whitehouse, all either of these maniacs want is to look like the chest beating saviours of their respective nations. Nothing more, nothing less. This has nothing to do with NATO, insignificant countries like our own, or even Ukraine themselves. A deal will be done, lies will be told, both men will win.
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He hasn't said he would pull Ukraine support, but he did say he would resolve the matter on day one of his presidency...he repeated later that he would resolve the war in 24 hours.
His own words.
And this time he has a big bunch of yes men around him...he can do as he likes without outside checks...he has full control of the government this time.
We don't know what the actual people of Ukraine want, from the early big paper reports in the first year, many people living in Ukraine, not just Russian speakers, saw themselves as ethnic geographic Russians, victims in a corrupt war between east and west, following the collapse and break up of the soviet empire.
They want the war to stop, many unconcerned about eventual government, they just want to stop being the battleground.
Remember, Ukraine is run by a literal comic with zero political experience before the war, because the population had lost confidence in all politicians from the previous governments. Not an ideal leader in world conflict...like Putin.
Having a war between two nations wrapped in corruption, in all areas of government, isn't easy to watch from the sidelines.
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And we have another comedian in charge now but that’s for another topic