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SeaWorld Orlando: General Discussion
- Thread starter Danny
- Start date
tayspru
TS Member
B&am Track is reportedly on site for Project Toboggan
From: https://twitter.com/ethanhershaft/status/1682171189924331520?s=46
From: https://twitter.com/ethanhershaft/status/1682171189924331520?s=46
siralgenon
TS Member
I'm clearly out of the loop but what happened to the penguin dark ride?
Matt N
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Shambhala (PortAventura Park)
It shut for the COVID lockdowns in 2020 and never reopened, having stood SBNO ever since. There were rumours that SeaWorld forgot to charge the batteries for the cars during lockdown, meaning that the batteries died and needed replacing. SeaWorld allegedly wasn't willing to replace the batteries.
The dark ride itself is being replaced by Project Toboggan for 2024.
The penguin exhibit now opens on its own, and you still queue to get into it. It's actually very popular, as my family reported waiting for an hour to see the penguins on our visit last month! That's far longer than I waited for any of the park's coasters on the same day, for what it's worth...
MakoMania
TS Member
I'm hearing that 2024 will not be the end of SeaWorld Orlando's coaster streak, and that there is a coaster project slated for 2025 that will revitalize the Wild Arctic area. I'm also hearing that it may be quite large, allowing it to capture attention when opening during the same timeframe as Epic Universe.
MakoMania
TS Member
There was (fairly legit, but not confirmed of course) talk of SEAS having a 5 coaster deal with B&M. Presuming Emperor was the first installment, followed by Pipeline and Project Toboggan, we may still have two B&Ms left to place somewhere in the chain, while it may not be the likeliest outcome I wouldn't say that it would be a crazy thought to think that SWO may receive its 6th B&M coaster in 2025.
For a park that has to compete with Disney & Universal for staffing, having lots of rides from the same manufacturer does make sense from a cross-training perspective for ride operations and maintenance. Plus, with SWO having to deal with frequent downtime on Infinity Falls I think park management wants to stay away from Intamin, the only question is whether they may have Intamin imposed on them by corporate (see BGW.)
For a park that has to compete with Disney & Universal for staffing, having lots of rides from the same manufacturer does make sense from a cross-training perspective for ride operations and maintenance. Plus, with SWO having to deal with frequent downtime on Infinity Falls I think park management wants to stay away from Intamin, the only question is whether they may have Intamin imposed on them by corporate (see BGW.)
Rob
TS Team
- Favourite Ride
- Steel Vengeance
That seems a tad extreme, there is nothing to suggest that they are struggling to survive? The strategy is to change the perception of the park away from shows using sea animals and a new focus on rides and thrills.
I've not been to SeaWorld since 2015 but can't wait to return in the future, the park is going to be vastly different!
I understand they are trying to change the perception of the park, and I think that's the right thing to do. But the pure amount of investment, especially at a time like this where everything is costing more, I just don't see how they can continue to fund it without actually making any money.
I still think there's the potential for them to be doing this on purpose in an attempt to make the properties are worth more if they want to sell them, why else just continually invest in massive projects without waiting for a return.
MakoMania
TS Member
There's two sides to this I guess
1) Yes, investment expenditure has gone up.
But.......
2) The parks are significantly more profitable than they were 5 years ago, revenues are through the roof.
You have also seen (with a few exceptions) SEAS rely predominantly on B&M and Intamin over recent years. I understand that they have been able to obtain significant bulk purchase deals with both manufacturers, helping to drive the per investment cost down.
Having said this, outside of Florida I think you will soon see a slow down in investment. For example, in 2024 the only major projects appear to be SWO and BGT, with nothing huge slated for BGW, SWSA, or SWSD. Florida seems to be the focus over the next couple of years just because of the competitive landscape there, you will still see large investments at other parks (BGW 2025 for example,) but I think the blockbuster attraction every year trend that we have been seeing will start to be condensed to just Orlando and Tampa.
Matt N
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Shambhala (PortAventura Park)
Wow; that’s quite impressive if true! 4 decent-scale coasters in 4 years must surely be one of the longest sustained streaks of year-on-year coaster investment ever? I’m not even sure that 2000s Six Flags, in all of their coaster-building bombast, matched that at any of their properties…
Overall, I think that putting big coasters at the forefront of their business strategy is probably a reasonable idea for SeaWorld in the long term. They need a distraction from the ever-contentious issue of the orcas, as well as some collateral major draws that will give the park something to fall back on in the event of the last orcas dying out (as much as the orcas are a contentious issue for some, a not insignificant amount of people still see them as a major draw). They also need to carve themselves a niche that separates them from Disney and Universal in the Orlando theme park market, and focusing on dark rides, theming and immersive experiences won’t do that as Disney and Universal have this market cornered with far larger budgets to play with.
As much as Universal in particular has dabbled in big thrill coasters with great success, I don’t think it’s a niche of the Orlando market that Disney and Universal will ever truly master and/or wholeheartedly centre their parks around purely due to the type of parks they are. Those parks are premium parks that aim to have a wide appeal and a strong focus on immersive experiences, so they will never be thrill coaster havens. As such, that leaves a big gap in the market that SeaWorld can fill, and I think it’s smart that they’re seemingly trying to do that.
However… I do have a few concerns about this strategy that I never used to have, particularly after my recent visit last month. I’m not trying to infer that it’s necessarily been unsuccessful, and I also concede that my concerns are probably unfounded given that I know pretty much nothing about business and SeaWorld are seemingly pressing on with the strategy, but I did have some concerns develop following my recent visit.
Firstly, I’m not sure that the coasters and rides are currently a prime draw for the bulk of SeaWorld’s clientele despite the company’s best efforts. While I’m well aware that queue times alone do not dictate popularity, the coaster queues were for the most part pretty short on the day I visited. Even on the newer rides with lower throughputs (as an example, throughputs were below 500pph on Pipeline and not much higher on Ice Breaker), they didn’t get particularly long; I’d take a stab at no more than 20-25 minutes or so all day even with throughputs of 500pph or under. The B&Ms pretty much never exceeded a 10 minute queue, even with throughputs not exactly being huge in some cases. For instance, Kraken was running 2 trains out of 3, with trains being parked in the station for 3 minutes every time, but the ride never seemed to get more than a station wait from what I could see. Manta was running 2 trains/1 station and religiously stacking, but I only waited around 10-15 minutes for it. My rides on Mako were pretty much all walk-on or a station wait, but that one was admittedly getting the best part of 1,000pph on 2 trains. On the flip side, everything animal-related seemed fairly busy; the orca show was absolutely rammed, with the stadium being pretty much full, the other animal shows seemed to have hordes of people waiting outside them, and my family reported to me that they waited for over an hour to see the penguins.
Secondly, I also wonder if the optics of the park’s continued coaster building are not that great. My family had previously really liked SeaWorld, but came out of the park considerably less enamoured in 2023, and they seemed aghast that SeaWorld was building so many coasters rather than focusing on the animals. They all seemed to be of the view that building so many coasters was unduly diverting focus from the animals and that SeaWorld is neglecting its duties as a conservation-based park. Their view was “why are SeaWorld building roller coasters left, right and centre when they’re supposed to be a conservation park focused on animals?”. I accept that my family are a very small sample size and may not necessarily be reflective of the wider visiting populace, but it did make me wonder about whether SeaWorld’s coaster building spree could cause further problems in terms of their reputation for animal welfare.
So basically, I think SeaWorld still has some work to do in terms of repositioning themselves as the coaster capital of Orlando. I think the strategy could definitely work in the long term, and I accept that I’m not really in a position to do much interrogation of business strategy, but the bulk of SeaWorld’s clientele still seems to view them as an animal park first and foremost, and I do wonder about the optics of SeaWorld’s sustained coaster building.
Overall, I think that putting big coasters at the forefront of their business strategy is probably a reasonable idea for SeaWorld in the long term. They need a distraction from the ever-contentious issue of the orcas, as well as some collateral major draws that will give the park something to fall back on in the event of the last orcas dying out (as much as the orcas are a contentious issue for some, a not insignificant amount of people still see them as a major draw). They also need to carve themselves a niche that separates them from Disney and Universal in the Orlando theme park market, and focusing on dark rides, theming and immersive experiences won’t do that as Disney and Universal have this market cornered with far larger budgets to play with.
As much as Universal in particular has dabbled in big thrill coasters with great success, I don’t think it’s a niche of the Orlando market that Disney and Universal will ever truly master and/or wholeheartedly centre their parks around purely due to the type of parks they are. Those parks are premium parks that aim to have a wide appeal and a strong focus on immersive experiences, so they will never be thrill coaster havens. As such, that leaves a big gap in the market that SeaWorld can fill, and I think it’s smart that they’re seemingly trying to do that.
However… I do have a few concerns about this strategy that I never used to have, particularly after my recent visit last month. I’m not trying to infer that it’s necessarily been unsuccessful, and I also concede that my concerns are probably unfounded given that I know pretty much nothing about business and SeaWorld are seemingly pressing on with the strategy, but I did have some concerns develop following my recent visit.
Firstly, I’m not sure that the coasters and rides are currently a prime draw for the bulk of SeaWorld’s clientele despite the company’s best efforts. While I’m well aware that queue times alone do not dictate popularity, the coaster queues were for the most part pretty short on the day I visited. Even on the newer rides with lower throughputs (as an example, throughputs were below 500pph on Pipeline and not much higher on Ice Breaker), they didn’t get particularly long; I’d take a stab at no more than 20-25 minutes or so all day even with throughputs of 500pph or under. The B&Ms pretty much never exceeded a 10 minute queue, even with throughputs not exactly being huge in some cases. For instance, Kraken was running 2 trains out of 3, with trains being parked in the station for 3 minutes every time, but the ride never seemed to get more than a station wait from what I could see. Manta was running 2 trains/1 station and religiously stacking, but I only waited around 10-15 minutes for it. My rides on Mako were pretty much all walk-on or a station wait, but that one was admittedly getting the best part of 1,000pph on 2 trains. On the flip side, everything animal-related seemed fairly busy; the orca show was absolutely rammed, with the stadium being pretty much full, the other animal shows seemed to have hordes of people waiting outside them, and my family reported to me that they waited for over an hour to see the penguins.
Secondly, I also wonder if the optics of the park’s continued coaster building are not that great. My family had previously really liked SeaWorld, but came out of the park considerably less enamoured in 2023, and they seemed aghast that SeaWorld was building so many coasters rather than focusing on the animals. They all seemed to be of the view that building so many coasters was unduly diverting focus from the animals and that SeaWorld is neglecting its duties as a conservation-based park. Their view was “why are SeaWorld building roller coasters left, right and centre when they’re supposed to be a conservation park focused on animals?”. I accept that my family are a very small sample size and may not necessarily be reflective of the wider visiting populace, but it did make me wonder about whether SeaWorld’s coaster building spree could cause further problems in terms of their reputation for animal welfare.
So basically, I think SeaWorld still has some work to do in terms of repositioning themselves as the coaster capital of Orlando. I think the strategy could definitely work in the long term, and I accept that I’m not really in a position to do much interrogation of business strategy, but the bulk of SeaWorld’s clientele still seems to view them as an animal park first and foremost, and I do wonder about the optics of SeaWorld’s sustained coaster building.
Yes but operating costs are also through the roof.
They need to slow it down. I just don't see how you can sustain such a high level of investment without actually having any capital. It's a high risk stragety, if these investments don't pay off they're going to be stuck with a lot of debt.
I like that they are investing, it's good but they could've done it a little more gradual, to allow things to change more naturally and allow them to actually see some returns on investments. People don't view SeaWorld how they want them to view it, but sticking a load of coasters in one go surely isn't going to do that? Wouldn't they be better off to take there time and use some clever marketing.
Matt N
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Shambhala (PortAventura Park)
But surely profits would be affected by operating costs being higher if the strategy wasn’t paying off? Wouldn’t profits take operating costs into account?
If profits are still high in spite of operating costs being higher, then surely the strategy is paying off?
MakoMania
TS Member
This is not accurate. Operating costs have risen moderately, revenue increases have outpaced this. The parks are more profitable as a result.
That is true for some reason I had it in my head @MakoMania was talking about income, so ignore that. But I stand by my comments that it's a very risky stragety and the opinions on SeaWorld aren't going to be changed by sticking coasters in one go without consideration for how they intend to actually change people mind.
Rob
TS Team
- Favourite Ride
- Steel Vengeance
If profits are up as a result of the strategy, and there are no indications to show that this is about to suddenly change, then it doesn't seem an overly risky strategy at all. Seems to make business sense.
The prospect of Epic Universe on the horizon is also something to consider. SeaWorld is very close to the site of Epic Universe, so not only do they need to be in a better position than they ever have been to compete with Universal, they also need to try and jump on the back of more people being in the area for longer because of Universal.