Alot of people have been moaning about this but surely this is the big thrill we have been looking for since nemesis? It seems to have a good theme,in a good area,we have a replacement for the BH tent which people have been begging for,I just think people a being a bit greedy asking for more
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Secret Weapon 7 Discussion
- Thread starter Mark00us
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cotda
TS Member
Look, chances are that this will not be a major worlds first, but the entire project just screams nemmy. The model of coaster chances are not a worlds first (Nemesis), first inverting Coaster since (Nemesis), Coming from a relatively new coaster company (Nemesis). The similarities are crazy. I've got a feeling that this could be the coaster that Gerst needs to help give it a name, though I still believe that Nemmy will reign supreme, this will be an exciting, fairly well themed coaster, that is replacing an un-used tent. What's not to like?
Tim
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Air / Blue Fire
Just to point out Gerstlauer are not a fairly new company, they've been round since the 1980's (older than B&M) and the first Euro-Fighter was nearly 10 years ago. But yes there are one or two similarity's between this and Nemesis, But not similarity's which can really tell us how good the ride will be.
I'm also worried about the train’s length although not because of how it will look but in the way the coaster will ride. I find the short trains have a lot less dynamic interest because you don't have the same sense of being pushed from behind or being pulled by the front. I think this is the main reason why there hasn't yet been a Euro-Fighter that's generally considered World Class.
However I don't think the trains have to be too long to get that feeling right. Blitz length trains are probably the ideal length (Maverick & Fahrenheit) as they can still have fairly tight manoeuvres (Just look at Fahrenheit's vertical lift) without sacrificing the feel of a proper train.
I still think that SW7 could have trains like this. I seem to remember someone who made one of the NoLimits mock-ups saying the ride ran better with longer trains. Also as others have mentioned it will overcome the throughput issue as I believe Saw has the best Euro-Fighter throughput but at a max of 1000pph that really isn't good enough for the next SW.
Bear said:
I'm also worried about the train’s length although not because of how it will look but in the way the coaster will ride. I find the short trains have a lot less dynamic interest because you don't have the same sense of being pushed from behind or being pulled by the front. I think this is the main reason why there hasn't yet been a Euro-Fighter that's generally considered World Class.
However I don't think the trains have to be too long to get that feeling right. Blitz length trains are probably the ideal length (Maverick & Fahrenheit) as they can still have fairly tight manoeuvres (Just look at Fahrenheit's vertical lift) without sacrificing the feel of a proper train.
I still think that SW7 could have trains like this. I seem to remember someone who made one of the NoLimits mock-ups saying the ride ran better with longer trains. Also as others have mentioned it will overcome the throughput issue as I believe Saw has the best Euro-Fighter throughput but at a max of 1000pph that really isn't good enough for the next SW.
CGM
TS Member
manual_operator said:
I don't know...when B&M first came about, they completely revolutionised the steel coaster industry. You have to remember that at the time, Arrow was the established manufacturer. They'd just invented the hyper coaster and were doing pretty well for themselves building those and various multi-loopers. Then B&M came along with the likes of Batman and Kumba instantly making Arrow's contraptions look decades out of date.
Gerstlauer have pioneered the more-than-vertical drop but they don't look to be in any shape to be taking the reigns from B&M and Intamin.
manual_operator said:
I'm not completely unexcited, I'm just not bouncing off the walls excited.
Alastair
TS Team
- Favourite Ride
- Rise of the Resistance
I'm just excited at how revitalised X-Sector will look with a huge new multilooper alongside Oblivion - the area will for the first time in years feel lively and as much a part of the park as FV has become. I also think that the single car trains look ridiculous and hope that Gerst have pioneered some kind of small train like Maurer's X-Car that will at least have some extra force in the back and offer different experiences based on where you sit.
As for Gerstlauer being similar to B&M in the early 90's - they are nothing of the sort. All they've achieved in the past 10 years is the beyond vertical drop - which has meant having to sacrifice throughput because of the stupidly small single trains. They also offer no other types other than the EuroFighter/launch, Junior coaster and Spinning coaster (which Maurer already developed). B&M were already pioneering never before seen coaster types in the early 90's, stuff that actually worked and rode well because they spent time designing the track to be perfect. Most of Gerstlauer's stuff is known to be rough and their track and restraints uncomfortable. I'm just hoping that the budget available for SW7 will force them to address these issues and deliver a great coaster.
As for Gerstlauer being similar to B&M in the early 90's - they are nothing of the sort. All they've achieved in the past 10 years is the beyond vertical drop - which has meant having to sacrifice throughput because of the stupidly small single trains. They also offer no other types other than the EuroFighter/launch, Junior coaster and Spinning coaster (which Maurer already developed). B&M were already pioneering never before seen coaster types in the early 90's, stuff that actually worked and rode well because they spent time designing the track to be perfect. Most of Gerstlauer's stuff is known to be rough and their track and restraints uncomfortable. I'm just hoping that the budget available for SW7 will force them to address these issues and deliver a great coaster.
Prometheus
TS Member
I don't understand blocking that well, however looking at the layout, to me it screams new longer trains. The main circuit doesn't look like it could handle more than 2 trains at a time without causing some major flow problems, ruining the ride experience, start pause, start pause, etc. The standard cars just couldn't cope with this track length IMO, not enough blocks. Tim's mention of Blitz length trains sounds bang on the money. It'll probably end up being 2 standard cars tied together but anything would help I guess?
BigAl
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Forbidden Journey
I can't see why they couldn't use their newish 6-seater Euro-Fighter model but add another one or two to make a train. Dare Devil Dive at Six Flags Over Georgia has them.
I think that a train of two or three of these would be more than enough.
And they're capable of going up a vertical lift.
(photos from RCDB)
I had a go at working out some theoretical capacities for SW7 based on differing train counts and train sizes. This thing will either need to be something like four trains that consist of 3 cars per train, or five trains that each consist of two cars. Anything less goes below 1000 rider per hour, and that isn't any good. But then again, 5 trains that are made-up of 3 cars each would create a capacity that's not much behind Oblivion! I'm not sure if they could make a train of four cars because of the vertical lift and length of the brakes, but four trains that consist of four cars would be good too.
But the estimates were very rough.
Edit: I'll add this pov in as well, if it helps?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-Bnojwbv7E[/youtube]
I also forgot to mention about the lap-bars. No otsr's!
I think that a train of two or three of these would be more than enough.
And they're capable of going up a vertical lift.
(photos from RCDB)
I had a go at working out some theoretical capacities for SW7 based on differing train counts and train sizes. This thing will either need to be something like four trains that consist of 3 cars per train, or five trains that each consist of two cars. Anything less goes below 1000 rider per hour, and that isn't any good. But then again, 5 trains that are made-up of 3 cars each would create a capacity that's not much behind Oblivion! I'm not sure if they could make a train of four cars because of the vertical lift and length of the brakes, but four trains that consist of four cars would be good too.
But the estimates were very rough.
Edit: I'll add this pov in as well, if it helps?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-Bnojwbv7E[/youtube]
I also forgot to mention about the lap-bars. No otsr's!
Rob
TS Team
- Favourite Ride
- Steel Vengeance
I personally think we will be seeing the Gerstlauer cars that are used on the likes of Anubis, Lynet, Huracan and Dare Devil Dive. However I think they will have an extra seat on either side of the ride car, so that they are 3 rows of 4 seats. There is no reason why this wouldn't be possible and it would mean greater throughputs than on the standard cars that have 6 seats.
Prometheus
TS Member
^^ Seems very plausible, Gerst went with 6 seater 2 across with lapbars for Dare Devil Dive, then went back to 8 seater 4 across trains with lapbars for Iron Shark this year. Next logical step could well be Lynet style 3 rows, but with 4 seats and lapbars. 12 per car would get it above 1000 per hour I'm guessing?
This is getting complicated! Watch SW7 get delivered with the standard 8 seater OTSR trains now, just to make all of this speculation pointless lol.
This is getting complicated! Watch SW7 get delivered with the standard 8 seater OTSR trains now, just to make all of this speculation pointless lol.
manual_operator
TS Member
How about 2 cars of 'standard' size linked together? 2 x 2 rows of 4? Would they take up that much more room in length than the DDD cars? Also as long as the batching is good with possibly dual loading, capacity may not be too shabby.
Ian
TS Team
- Favourite Ride
- Dizz, Bobby’s Yarn Land
I'll be very surprised if they don't have dual loading personally. As far as I can tell that's the only way they'll be able to get a decent throughput. That or dual stations.
I'm praying this doesn't have the standard Eurofighter cars personally. As SAW has proved those vehicles aren't capable of offering the throughputs required by a park of Alton/Thorpe's size. Also, I don't think there's enough blocks on that layout for it to be efficient.
I'm liking the idea of Maverick style trains. I reckon little trains like that
Maverick uses six of them and hits 1200pph. How many blocks do we have?
I reckon we'll have two stations. Each one can hold two trains like that. They load two together and dispatch two together from one side. They then use a dual shuttle style system similar to SAW and Oblivion. So the first train goes straight out and into the coaster, the other follows then stops outside the station. When the first block is clear this then continues on.
With the right timing they could have trains going more or less constantly around the main layout, with two trains totalling 24 riders loading at once.
I'm still not certain how many blocks there are, but they'd have to be able to get 8 trains of 12 on that way? 4 in the stations, one going through the first indoor section, one holding in front of the station, one going around the first outdoor part after lift/launch 1, and the last one traveling through part two after the second lift.
Sooooo, and bare with me on this I'm no expert with figures, if Maverick is getting 1200pph on 6 trains each train is contributing around 200pph. So if we could get 8 onto this it would hit at least 1400pph would it not, if not more? That's on par with Nemmy, which is what Alton needs to be aiming for at present.
Just a thought going off what others have been suggesting
I'm praying this doesn't have the standard Eurofighter cars personally. As SAW has proved those vehicles aren't capable of offering the throughputs required by a park of Alton/Thorpe's size. Also, I don't think there's enough blocks on that layout for it to be efficient.
I'm liking the idea of Maverick style trains. I reckon little trains like that
Maverick uses six of them and hits 1200pph. How many blocks do we have?
I reckon we'll have two stations. Each one can hold two trains like that. They load two together and dispatch two together from one side. They then use a dual shuttle style system similar to SAW and Oblivion. So the first train goes straight out and into the coaster, the other follows then stops outside the station. When the first block is clear this then continues on.
With the right timing they could have trains going more or less constantly around the main layout, with two trains totalling 24 riders loading at once.
I'm still not certain how many blocks there are, but they'd have to be able to get 8 trains of 12 on that way? 4 in the stations, one going through the first indoor section, one holding in front of the station, one going around the first outdoor part after lift/launch 1, and the last one traveling through part two after the second lift.
Sooooo, and bare with me on this I'm no expert with figures, if Maverick is getting 1200pph on 6 trains each train is contributing around 200pph. So if we could get 8 onto this it would hit at least 1400pph would it not, if not more? That's on par with Nemmy, which is what Alton needs to be aiming for at present.
Just a thought going off what others have been suggesting
CGM
TS Member
Ian said:Sooooo, and bare with me on this I'm no expert with figures, if Maverick is getting 1200pph on 6 trains each train is contributing around 200pph. So if we could get 8 onto this it would hit at least 1400pph would it not, if not more? That's on par with Nemmy, which is what Alton needs to be aiming for at present.
Just a thought going off what others have been suggesting
It doesn't quite work like that. If the trains have a low capacity and the layout takes ages to complete with too few block sections, it doesn't matter how many trains you have, the capacity will still be terrible. All you'll get is a load of trains queuing up for ages to get back to the station.
Ian
TS Team
- Favourite Ride
- Dizz, Bobby’s Yarn Land
Oh I realise that, but comparing this to SAW, as it's one of the closest rides in the UK, this will undoubtedly have several vehicles. If we're going to have several though by getting more seats into each shuttle/train the only point which it will have much impact is on and offload.
I doubt very much we'll see a full length train due to the layout and how it is designed, so shuttles seem to be the most fitting option. Therefore, given SAWs performance with 8 passenger vehicles it seems one of the only ways for this to achieve a higher throughout is to increase the number of passengers per shuttle/train. However, as a consequence of this it looks likely the train length will increase. My suggestion was to achieve this by using a Maverick esque train.
I appreciate that if you have a long coaster it takes longer for one lot of passengers to make a full circuit, and therefore less people get on the ride. But if this is going to have traditional shuttles I see no reason why it wouldn't have at least 6 vehicles (Maybe more depending on the station). By keeping to the same rough number of vehicles making the change from EF to Maverick designs shouldn't make too much of an impact. The only point where it may be longer is on and offload, owing to the two extra people onboard.
Like I said, the numbers aren't my strong suit, but by sticking to the same sort of number of vehicles but increasing the capacity of each I would assume there is an increase in capacity in one form or another. Obviously, there would need to be the extra on and offload time accounted for, but that's why I estimated a smaller increase of 200pph, as oppose to the 400 the calculation would suggest.
I doubt very much we'll see a full length train due to the layout and how it is designed, so shuttles seem to be the most fitting option. Therefore, given SAWs performance with 8 passenger vehicles it seems one of the only ways for this to achieve a higher throughout is to increase the number of passengers per shuttle/train. However, as a consequence of this it looks likely the train length will increase. My suggestion was to achieve this by using a Maverick esque train.
I appreciate that if you have a long coaster it takes longer for one lot of passengers to make a full circuit, and therefore less people get on the ride. But if this is going to have traditional shuttles I see no reason why it wouldn't have at least 6 vehicles (Maybe more depending on the station). By keeping to the same rough number of vehicles making the change from EF to Maverick designs shouldn't make too much of an impact. The only point where it may be longer is on and offload, owing to the two extra people onboard.
Like I said, the numbers aren't my strong suit, but by sticking to the same sort of number of vehicles but increasing the capacity of each I would assume there is an increase in capacity in one form or another. Obviously, there would need to be the extra on and offload time accounted for, but that's why I estimated a smaller increase of 200pph, as oppose to the 400 the calculation would suggest.
CGM
TS Member
I think overall, you're right. The best way to increase capacity is higher capacity trains. It's obvious really as it's the solution that moves the most people in one go.
As for vehicle numbers, I don't know how many vehicles Saw has or what the blocking setup is on the ride but in theory, for maximum throughput, you should only need enough trains so that there's a train waiting to roll into the station before the one in front moves out. This is why most coasters with a single MCBR run up to three trains.
It's also important that the loading time is less than the time it takes for the train in front to clear the first block section. Where this is impossible, dual stations can come into play. I don't think this should be necessary for SW7 as it looks like it will have short trains with low capacity therefore easy to fill quickly.
The thing is, despite all of the precautions taken, I think it's one thing getting a theoretical high capacity from the short trains, loads of blocks setup and another actually achieving it. Saw probably adds up on paper but from what people have said, it doesn't really work.
Sorry if I'm going over things that you already realise or seem obvious, I just think it's important to dispell the myth that more trains = higher throughput. It can be the case but not always.
As for vehicle numbers, I don't know how many vehicles Saw has or what the blocking setup is on the ride but in theory, for maximum throughput, you should only need enough trains so that there's a train waiting to roll into the station before the one in front moves out. This is why most coasters with a single MCBR run up to three trains.
It's also important that the loading time is less than the time it takes for the train in front to clear the first block section. Where this is impossible, dual stations can come into play. I don't think this should be necessary for SW7 as it looks like it will have short trains with low capacity therefore easy to fill quickly.
The thing is, despite all of the precautions taken, I think it's one thing getting a theoretical high capacity from the short trains, loads of blocks setup and another actually achieving it. Saw probably adds up on paper but from what people have said, it doesn't really work.
Sorry if I'm going over things that you already realise or seem obvious, I just think it's important to dispell the myth that more trains = higher throughput. It can be the case but not always.
Sam
TS Member
I predict it'll be lap-bar individual cars, with a capacity of six. In-line (or duel) loading is a must for capacity. I can't see this ride having 'trains'. In fact, I'm quite certain it won't.
This ride will live or die on those restraints. If it has OTSRs, it'll be a failure. If it has lapbars, it'll be a success.
This ride will live or die on those restraints. If it has OTSRs, it'll be a failure. If it has lapbars, it'll be a success.
Scott
Former TS Team Member
- Favourite Ride
- Nemesis
I wouldn't quite go as far to say it'll be a failure if it goes for OTSRs but it would certainly be disappointing. If it did have them then it would be a surprise with Gerst's current like for lap bars and it would also require the ride to be very smooth to stop the jolting experienced on Saw.
I still expect to see extended shuttles though. At least 2 cars per 'train' with a capacity of at least 12.
I still expect to see extended shuttles though. At least 2 cars per 'train' with a capacity of at least 12.
Tim
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Air / Blue Fire
I'm fairly confident SW7 will not have duel stations. Two reasons:
1) The station building is quite narrow and therefore unlikely to be able to fit two stations side by side.
2) As CGM pointed out a ride only needs two stations if it takes longer to load a train than it does for a train to get between the two slowest block sections. Assuming this ride has lap bars (which are quick to load) and that each train is not going to hold lots of people it'll easily be loaded and ready to go in time (judging by NoLimits POV's)
However an in-line station which like Saw’s can load two or more trains at once does seem likely it'll be easier to batch than constantly loading one at a time, especial if the ride is duelling.
Ok I've just been doing some more calculations to try and work out the minimum capacity each train needs to have. This is assuming the main coaster sections take the most amount of time. This has been calculated using Nemesis94 & DJW's original video:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOFUNyo-MKY&list=FLih0lQs_E9SM5zA8wngTldg&index=10&feature=plpp_video[/youtube]
To get from the top of the lift hill to the mid-course break run takes 33s
To get from the top of the vertical lift to the final break run takes 32s
We therefore take the longest value of 33s as our minimum gap between each train.
So at the very best 1.81 trains can pass this point per minute
Therefore 108 trains can pass in an hour.
If we assume that SW7 has the same capacity as Saw (8) that gives it a capacity of 864pph. Ouch!
If we add another cart (12) we get 1296pph. That's about in-line with Th13teen. 12 is also the same number of seats as a Blitz.
1) The station building is quite narrow and therefore unlikely to be able to fit two stations side by side.
2) As CGM pointed out a ride only needs two stations if it takes longer to load a train than it does for a train to get between the two slowest block sections. Assuming this ride has lap bars (which are quick to load) and that each train is not going to hold lots of people it'll easily be loaded and ready to go in time (judging by NoLimits POV's)
However an in-line station which like Saw’s can load two or more trains at once does seem likely it'll be easier to batch than constantly loading one at a time, especial if the ride is duelling.
Ok I've just been doing some more calculations to try and work out the minimum capacity each train needs to have. This is assuming the main coaster sections take the most amount of time. This has been calculated using Nemesis94 & DJW's original video:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOFUNyo-MKY&list=FLih0lQs_E9SM5zA8wngTldg&index=10&feature=plpp_video[/youtube]
I chose the original video as I feel the timing is more accurate without all the lag inducing scenery
To get from the top of the lift hill to the mid-course break run takes 33s
To get from the top of the vertical lift to the final break run takes 32s
We therefore take the longest value of 33s as our minimum gap between each train.
So at the very best 1.81 trains can pass this point per minute
Therefore 108 trains can pass in an hour.
If we assume that SW7 has the same capacity as Saw (8) that gives it a capacity of 864pph. Ouch!
If we add another cart (12) we get 1296pph. That's about in-line with Th13teen. 12 is also the same number of seats as a Blitz.
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