Secret Weapon 7 Discussion

[Rob]

Some of you are getting carried away here. The plans have been submitted to the local authorities, so it wouldn't be just enthusiasts' eyes who they were pulling the wool over.

With all the issues with the Ropers etc, they would not risk falsifying plans in any way - indeed there is a good chance that every application they submit be rejected. They simply would not do this in my opinion.

If Merlin are prepared to take an annual pass of someone who visits half a dozen times a year because they have lent it to a friend for the day (hypothetical situation), then I'd be more than prepared to go to the council and say that they didn't submit plans in an honest manner.

I'm sure that whatever they have done, they will have fully consulted with the council. So they may have said to them that the coaster on the plans is only a very rough idea of what it will be like; it will have the same high points and take up the same space but the layout will differ. The council will know what they are doing I'm sure. Remember on the plans some of the track clashes with the theming, so something has to budge and seeing as the coaster doesn't need planning permission, that makes the most sense.

 

[Martin]

Rita didn't need planning permission, but the documents submitted with the layout were accurate.

They'd have to submit accurate drawings of the layout to show the highpoints, visibility etc. Why draw the high points accurately and then just make up the rest?

I'm one of an increasingly small group to say it, but I' still saying the plan layout is what we'll see.

 

[Tim]

I'm really confused by the plans now. People who said 6 months ago that the product will never differ from the plans have now made a 180 and said its definitely different

I don't know what to think!

I agree, it does make it more exciting. I've always been erring on the side of caution re the plans, but are we now 100% they aren't matching?

I'll hold my hands up to this but I will say that I've made more of a 90 degree turn and am now in the uncertain group. Plus you'll never hear me claim 100% to anything.

I still believe what has been constructed fits the plans. The pit is a lot lower into the ground than we assumed but as the people who made the recreations claimed it needs to be lower for the path to get between the interlocked inversions. So far the footers which have been marked out also match up. The ones near the back are clearly for the indoor section and the ones in that pit near the front are for the side of the interlocking inversion that is closest to X-Sector. Admittedly this pit does not look like it does in the plans, but remember the plans were made in NoLimits so we weren’t expecting an exact replica.

Having said all of this there is one bit that doesn’t match the plans. The vertical lift hill and all the other excavation meant for that side of the site hasn’t happened. This would have required a lot of excavation that should have started by now. My only theory that doesn’t involve the plans being inaccurate is that they can’t begin work on this side of the ride until the diggers are out of the current pit. I'm not entirely convinced which is why I am now uncertain.

I still believe though that the idea the plans were faked to cover up extra world record breaking inversions was nonsense. Why would the park go to so much effort? They were completely open about the fact that Colossus was going to have 10 inversions and nobody even tried to beat it.

And Diogo I will happily bet £10 with you that the outside section of the ride is different to the plans.

You've always sounded so certain Dave. Please if you know this to be fact just say because it annoys me to keep arguing against you.

 

[Dave]

I don't know for certain, some things that have been hinted by people who work at the park suggest the "plans are deceiving" (one meeting we had for TT@10 used that very phrase) suggest to me that the plans are not accurate but I don't have factual evidence that is 100% concrete.

The issue sites like us have is we get lots of info from various sources though so you have to filter it as its often contradictory, I just have a feeling based on those things that the plans are not accurate.

No one on the team would deceive members, if we knew something that we couldn't mention we wouldn't say anything and if we knew something we could say for certain there would be a news item. This is just my inference from all the little bits we keep getting, most of which we have shared before or came through the forums.

 

[siralgenon]

I still believe though that the idea the plans were faked to cover up extra world record breaking inversions was nonsense. Why would the park go to so much effort? They were completely open about the fact that Colossus was going to have 10 inversions and nobody even tried to beat it.

They didn't have the OTT marketing strategies they have these days... : There's more thought goes in to hyping it up than there is going in to the attraction itself.

 

[adsyrah]

Yo dawg, I heard you like gimmicks. So I put a gimmick on the gimmick, so you can gimmick while you gimmick.

I'm assuming this was mocking me. What's with the OTT sarcasm?!

:

The idea that the world first element isn't the only thing that makes this ride unique is exciting.

 

[DiogoJ42]

No, that was mocking Merlin.

 

[Tom]

There is no pulling the wool over anyone's eyes, the roller coaster doesn't need planning permission which is directly specified in the plans. And if an accurate depiction of the ride gave away the "world beating" feature they would hide it. The final telling point is the plans submitted where a no-limits track exported to 3DS

I find that somewhat flawed. They state they don't need to display plans for the ride, but they do anyway to provide completeness to the proposal. This is done because it increases the chance of acceptance. Just because they don't have to submit plans for the track, it doesn't mean they have a licence to deceive. again, I don't believe they would mess around when it comes to plans.

 

[James]

The main reason people seem to be lead to believe the plans could be fake is mainly due to the reason planning permission is not needed for the roller coaster track. The planning application was only for the station building, which has to be the exact same as shown on plans. As long as the roller coaster sits within the general development order in that area then they can do what they like with track.

The only reason track was included in the application was to give it 'completeness'. Of course the noise report and so on is included just as a proof that the ride will fall within the GDO. It's just to please the locals if you like. It reassures anyone that is concerned any high points will have a negative visual impact on the area and is concerned about the level of noises.

What do I think... Well I think the track will be different. The height points I can see staying the same, as well as two lift hills. Although the rest of the ride I can see being different. My assumption since the application was first submitted is that the track shown in the application is not accurate. It's only there to give a general idea of how the area will look with the track. So I do think it will be different, however I do not think come March we will see something completely different (that might or might not make sense).

With SW7 being in a GDO area however. In theory, anything is possible as long as it stays within these boundaries. So whatever is coming in March is anyone's guess right now. Great work on Merlin Studios part though, it's been a while since a project at Alton has been shrouded in so much mystery. It's all quite exciting knowing that there are a few possibilities of where the ride could lead.

 

[Tim]

I don't know for certain, some things that have been hinted by people who work at the park suggest the "plans are deceiving" (one meeting we had for TT@10 used that very phrase) suggest to me that the plans are not accurate but I don't have factual evidence that is 100% concrete.

The issue sites like us have is we get lots of info from various sources though so you have to filter it as its often contradictory, I just have a feeling based on those things that the plans are not accurate.

No one on the team would deceive members, if we knew something that we couldn't mention we wouldn't say anything and if we knew something we could say for certain there would be a news item. This is just my inference from all the little bits we keep getting, most of which we have shared before or came through the forums.

Thanks Dave. You had actually half answered my question with your previous post but there were 7 other new posts in-between me writing mine and posting it.

I know you wouldn’t intentionally deceive us but it's just that every time this subject has come up you’ve pretty much claimed the plans being wrong as fact, when really it was just a well thought out opinion. My concern was that if you had been told something it would have been infuriating to know that we’d spent so much time debating over the matter when you’d known the answer all along.

Given what you’ve mentioned I can believe that some element may have been hidden but
Personally I’d interpret the sentence "plans are deceiving" to mean that what we saw might not have been what we thought. For example the track being made in NoLimits is something that could be classed as deceiving.

 

[Rob]

And in terms of the track layout being different to the plans, I take you back to what I posted last night:

Anyway, it is now time for me to attempt to prove that the track on the plans is incorrect; using my not so fantastic paint skills. First of all, the plans show this:

It is clear that the is a new ground level lower than present ground level, and the outdoor track goes down into this new ground level. All well and good, until you see the work that has been going on at the site. Things do not add up. Enter this photo:

I know it's not the best editing but you get the idea. The top of the new walls they are constructing are higher than present ground level. The photos don't show exactly how much so I have had to guess with the editing but when you see it yourself it is clear that they are a fair bit higher. The say the ground level here is meant to be lower though, that now surely isn't possible? The walls prevent ground level being as it is depicted in the plans. Therefore in my opinion the plans are wrong.

Feel free to counter my theory, I could be missing something obvious! A few of us were discussing this at the weekend though and all agreed on what I've pointed out here.

 

[Spark]

Wouldn't it be good if the track was actually a new style from Gers and this included new style trains.

End of the day anything is possible, AT knew sites like this and TT would investigate every aspect of the build so have gone as far as they can to ensure we don't know that much about the ride.

 

[Martin]

And the authorities won't know if the layout fits within regulations unless the layout is accurate. They can't just say "well we did this bit accurate and just made the rest up, but it's all legal, take our word for it".

 

[Benzin]

Are we sure people aren't thinking the track layout will differ to that on the plans because they think the current plans look awful?

 

[Dave]

And the authorities won't know if the layout fits within regulations unless the layout is accurate. They can't just say "well we did this bit accurate and just made the rest up, but it's all legal, take our word for it".

The planning officers would know the plans are representational as Alton Towers work closely with them, so if the "inaccurate plans" theory is correct the officers would know that. Legally just because they have represented the coaster doesn't mean they can't change it. The GDO still stands despite planning permission being granted.

As said I don't know for certain the plans are different to what we know but there is no legal or practical reason to restrict AT from changing the layout and certainly the current ground work doesn't match the plans.

 

[Scott]

I'm still firmly in the 'What you see is what you get' camp on this one... I admit that the plans will not be 100% accurate as the recreations and analysis of them showed that they clashed with theming and needed a few tweaks. However, I think that despite that small (maybe 5-10%) change, they will remain the same... I completely understand the GDO and how the track itself does not need to have permission, but I would also fear that Alton would be seen in a negative light by some locals if the track became too different.

Of course, were things to change dramatically, the high points of track would obviously remain the same, as would the size of the station and presumably the iconic interlocking element - but I still think things will turn out as the plans dictate... I hope so anyway, as the current layout excites me.

The only thing I would like to change would be the tired and dilapidated theme for the station building!

 

[Dave]

The high points and first turns will I think almost certainly be the same as the plans, I feel the interlocking cobras would also be part of the ride but I don't think we will see exactly what is on those plans, I think there will be extras

 

[Tim]

Just a little fun piece of information:
Do you remember the throughput calculation I used before which was based on the NoLimits recreation? It gave the absolute maximum throughput if the outside sections took the longest* and a train passed each block section as soon as it cleared. Well I've run the calculation again knowing the actual capacity:

Ans = 1,728 People Per Hour.

That is absolutely fantastic!

Obviously it'll never reach that number, but I'd say at a guess it could easily sit around the 1,400 to 1,500 pph mark which would make it the second highest capacity roller coaster after Oblivion.

---

* that time period was 33 seconds which by pure coincidence 165 seconds / 5 block breaks = 33 seconds each!

 

[CoasterCrazyChris]

X-Sector is such a small area that high capacity rides are a must to eat up crowds.

 

[KingNemesis]

Just a little fun piece of information:
Do you remember the throughput calculation I used before which was based on the NoLimits recreation? It gave the absolute maximum throughput if the outside sections took the longest* and a train passed each block section as soon as it cleared. Well I've run the calculation again knowing the actual capacity:

Ans = 1,728 People Per Hour.

That is absolutely fantastic!

Obviously it'll never reach that number, but I'd say at a guess it could easily sit around the 1,400 to 1,500 pph mark which would make it the second highest capacity roller coaster after Oblivion.

---

* that time period was 33 seconds which by pure coincidence 165 seconds / 5 block breaks = 33 seconds each!

---

Whats your workings?