D4n
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Pegasus Express is fab, but maybe a little bit too similar to Th13teen.
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This is a popular topic that is fast moving Guest - before posting, please ensure that you check out the first post in the topic for a quick reminder of guidelines, and importantly a summary of the known facts and information so far. Thanks. - Thread starter Matt N
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- Shambhala (PortAventura Park)
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- Steel Vengeance
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TBC: SW9 Speculation
Pegasus Express is fab, but maybe a little bit too similar to Th13teen.
FranklinsFreakyFarm
TS Member
Hands down the most disappointing attraction I've ever been on in my life. It astounds me that it gets the queues it does.
jon81uk
TS Member
Partly I think its poor throughput and partly its people who don't know what it is and want to find out. I guess the number of people repeat riding is very low.
Also AT did the VR fad on Galactica, I don't think they will be in any hurry to repeat it.
FranklinsFreakyFarm
TS Member
Well I went on Ghost Train a second time, partly because I thought I'd had a bad run through first time, and it was terrible again. Won't be bothering a third time, there are much better attractions at Thorpe.
Yeah, tbh I thought the VR on Galactica was great the first couple of times I tried it but like all VR it got boring. Alton did hint that they would be changing the VR up, stating that Galactica would be "visiting new destinations" but nothing ever came of it.
Matt N
TS Member
To be fair to Merlin, I think they have probably learnt lessons from DBGT, so I imagine that a major dark ride at Alton Towers would be amazing if it was ever built. Merlin Magic Making has some incredible minds working within it, and since Wicker Man was built in 2018, Merlin Magic Making seems to have taken a somewhat different approach to designing attractions, so it wouldn't surprise me to see Merlin opt for more tried and tested technology and make the best possible use of it if they were to build a high-budget dark ride now, as opposed to building something more unique and technologically advanced as they did with DBGT.
However, I don't actually think Alton Towers necessarily needs a new high-budget dark ride. They're building Gangsta Granny this year for the young families, they have Hex & they have Duel. If the Dungeons is a temporary attraction as many seem to be predicting, then they could quite easily convert the boat ride back into a family dark ride as it was before, and then I think they'd have enough dark rides for the time being, personally.
However, I don't actually think Alton Towers necessarily needs a new high-budget dark ride. They're building Gangsta Granny this year for the young families, they have Hex & they have Duel. If the Dungeons is a temporary attraction as many seem to be predicting, then they could quite easily convert the boat ride back into a family dark ride as it was before, and then I think they'd have enough dark rides for the time being, personally.
jon81uk
TS Member
They could absolutely add another full scale dark ride that’s suitable for the entire family, something that would be a proper replacement for Charlie or Toyland Tours. Something that a 5 year old, 10 year old and a 55 year old could all enjoy equally in style of Pirate adventure.
the two things AT are missing at the moment are thrilling rides that aren’t coasters and things suitable for the entire family of all ages. Oh and Staged live entertainment.
the two things AT are missing at the moment are thrilling rides that aren’t coasters and things suitable for the entire family of all ages. Oh and Staged live entertainment.
Jb85
TS Member
Is there anywhere they could build a dark ride in mutiny bay - like pirates adventure
jon81uk
TS Member
Probably could build on the staff car park / delivery area behind the arcade.
Jb85
TS Member
to be fair that’s a sizeable plot - you could probably put a duel sized ride there ....
My opinion, in all the major areas you should have :
2 Coaster
1 flat and a dark ride
Or 2 flats
ride capacity is very low atm at towers - take the coaster out of it there isn’t a lot to do
ReneBlade Master
TS Member
A return to the format of major coaster followed by a solid secondary ride for an area would be nice.
Unlikely, but nice.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Unlikely, but nice.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Matt N
TS Member
I know that now probably isn't the time to be discussing this, but do we think that SW9 has been delayed or potentially even cancelled due to the current worldwide situation?
I personally think that there's a chance that it could still go ahead in 2022, as I'd imagine that Wicker Man was well into the planning stages by this point in 2016. However, I admit that it's very likely that we could see a delay to 2023/2024 and/or a change of the plans to give the park's cash flow a chance to replenish. I think that complete cancellation is unlikely, however; I don't think parks will stop investing completely, as that would make all of the ride manufacturers go bankrupt and completely stall any sort of growth, which is surely what the parks want after a crisis like this one? Alton Towers/Merlin arguably went through a crisis of their own in 2015 and the year or two after, and they were still able to deliver Wicker Man, a very expensive project, in 2018.
I also decided to change the thread title due to the current circumstances.
I personally think that there's a chance that it could still go ahead in 2022, as I'd imagine that Wicker Man was well into the planning stages by this point in 2016. However, I admit that it's very likely that we could see a delay to 2023/2024 and/or a change of the plans to give the park's cash flow a chance to replenish. I think that complete cancellation is unlikely, however; I don't think parks will stop investing completely, as that would make all of the ride manufacturers go bankrupt and completely stall any sort of growth, which is surely what the parks want after a crisis like this one? Alton Towers/Merlin arguably went through a crisis of their own in 2015 and the year or two after, and they were still able to deliver Wicker Man, a very expensive project, in 2018.
I also decided to change the thread title due to the current circumstances.
Matt N
TS Member
I personally think that we will see investment before 2024, even if it does end up being more minor investment. Banks that offer loans and such to fund these sorts of investments will know that COVID-19 is only a temporary disruption to business while lockdown is in place, and investment is what gets people into theme parks, after all. Also, dependant on what sort of insurance Merlin has, they're probably covered for while the parks are closed.
I know that there is also the question of the effects that the likely global recession will have on attendance, but the parks seem to have been somewhat unaffected by past recessions. Taking Towers as an example, Air/Galactica was built in the midst of a recession following 9/11, and the park still did fairly well from it. Even during the 2008 financial crisis, which produced the worst recession post-WW2, the park still produced very good attendance figures, and Thirteen, which was built when the world was still arguably suffering from the after effects of the financial crisis, produced one of the park's most successful years ever. I'd argue that the park suffered far, far more from the Smiler crash in 2015 than any global recession, and even then, they still produced Wicker Man in 2018. Even if this crisis produces a very bad recession, it shouldn't last too long and it shouldn't impact the parks badly in the long term. The thing with the current crisis is that business should in theory resume with a degree of normality once lockdown measures are lifted, which should see the economy begin to grow again.
Also, in terms of the parks that Merlin owns; they will eventually receive cashflow to invest back into the parks, and I'd personally argue that Alton Towers is one of Merlin's least risky properties to invest into. You may wonder what I mean by this; the reason why I'm saying this is because their major additions usually tend to be very successful (in terms of short-term returns, at least). Thirteen produced one of the park's most successful years ever, The Smiler was a massive success once it opened and Wicker Man arguably reinvigorated the park's popularity and momentum following a hard period post-Smiler crash. Compared to some of their other properties, whose major investments seem to have a more inconsistent success rate (Thorpe Park comes to mind), Alton Towers is a fairly safe park to invest money into. There's also the fact that Merlin is now a private company; an investment's returns don't necessarily have to be short-term now that they don't have public shareholders to rely on, and the company's financial position is arguably far less volatile than that of most other theme park companies out there, as they no longer have a rapidly fluctuating stock price in the stock exchange impacting things.
So in conclusion, I do think that SW9 will get built. While it would not surprise me if it was delayed by a year or two, the plans were revised or both, I do think that we will see it get built at some point in the near future. Park officials have previously hinted that it's coming, and there were suggestions that it was in the planning stages as far back as late 2017. The park may well have ordered the ride and/or signed contracts before coronavirus broke out depending on how far back they started planning it. And going by theme park history; if there's anything that's a safe bet to reinvigorate visitor numbers and get people back in, it's a big new ride.
I know that there is also the question of the effects that the likely global recession will have on attendance, but the parks seem to have been somewhat unaffected by past recessions. Taking Towers as an example, Air/Galactica was built in the midst of a recession following 9/11, and the park still did fairly well from it. Even during the 2008 financial crisis, which produced the worst recession post-WW2, the park still produced very good attendance figures, and Thirteen, which was built when the world was still arguably suffering from the after effects of the financial crisis, produced one of the park's most successful years ever. I'd argue that the park suffered far, far more from the Smiler crash in 2015 than any global recession, and even then, they still produced Wicker Man in 2018. Even if this crisis produces a very bad recession, it shouldn't last too long and it shouldn't impact the parks badly in the long term. The thing with the current crisis is that business should in theory resume with a degree of normality once lockdown measures are lifted, which should see the economy begin to grow again.
Also, in terms of the parks that Merlin owns; they will eventually receive cashflow to invest back into the parks, and I'd personally argue that Alton Towers is one of Merlin's least risky properties to invest into. You may wonder what I mean by this; the reason why I'm saying this is because their major additions usually tend to be very successful (in terms of short-term returns, at least). Thirteen produced one of the park's most successful years ever, The Smiler was a massive success once it opened and Wicker Man arguably reinvigorated the park's popularity and momentum following a hard period post-Smiler crash. Compared to some of their other properties, whose major investments seem to have a more inconsistent success rate (Thorpe Park comes to mind), Alton Towers is a fairly safe park to invest money into. There's also the fact that Merlin is now a private company; an investment's returns don't necessarily have to be short-term now that they don't have public shareholders to rely on, and the company's financial position is arguably far less volatile than that of most other theme park companies out there, as they no longer have a rapidly fluctuating stock price in the stock exchange impacting things.
So in conclusion, I do think that SW9 will get built. While it would not surprise me if it was delayed by a year or two, the plans were revised or both, I do think that we will see it get built at some point in the near future. Park officials have previously hinted that it's coming, and there were suggestions that it was in the planning stages as far back as late 2017. The park may well have ordered the ride and/or signed contracts before coronavirus broke out depending on how far back they started planning it. And going by theme park history; if there's anything that's a safe bet to reinvigorate visitor numbers and get people back in, it's a big new ride.
Benjsh
TS Member
Towers are quite lucky in the respect that the current coaster line up is good enough to see them through the next 5-6 years as it is. They have one of the best coaster lineups in Europe easily, some would even argue the best collectively. Obviously individually there are better coasters but not many parks in Europe have 3 B&M's, a GCI woodie, Smiler, Rita, 13 etc.
Towers will be fine. Other UK parks are in a world of trouble I think. Blackpool being one of them.
Towers will be fine. Other UK parks are in a world of trouble I think. Blackpool being one of them.
pluk
TS Member
Overall quality of ride lineup aside, I've been thinking the exact opposite, for all UK theme parks and leisure attractions really but especially Blackpool in its location.
Once this has died down and things start moving towards normal I fully expect holidaying in the UK to be accessable and attractive to people much more swiftly than foreign travel will be. I can see in the medium term this being a huge boon for anyone involved in the UK holiday industry, somewhere like Blackpool will be heaving towards the end of summer if it is allowed to be, and that can only be a good thing for Pleasure Beach.
The places that I think will struggle will those that rely on foreign travellers to the UK, the London midways and the like. The same internationally, I expect regional parks will be fine but those that are on a scale that relies on international visitors will be in trouble for a while if their local catchment is not sufficient to support their size.
Not going to the wall while the restrictions are still in place will be the key...
Edit- to swing this somewhere near in topic, if the UK does find itself with a fairly captive market and people visiting parks almost by default as they are not going overseas that is probably a bad thing for any potential SW. Why spend millions on investment if people will come anyway? On top of that I'm sure any investor in anything really will be wanting to wait and see if this returns annually or worse before committing anything. Knocks any investment a few years down the line immediately.
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Matt N
TS Member
You actually make a very good point; wasn't the 2008 financial crisis actually a pretty good time for the UK tourism industry, as people were holidaying at home instead of abroad?
It might also be worth mentioning that I found an article online yesterday that said that the expected recession due to coronavirus probably wouldn't last as long or have as much of a long-lasting effect as past recessions like the 2008 financial crisis or the recession following 9/11. So I'd imagine that within a year or two, things should be beginning to return to normal with regards to tourism & travel.
Despite what I said above, I actually think that Towers' rollercoaster lineup is currently in a position where they could tick over for quite a bit of time without a new one being built. I agree with you in saying that they could probably survive without one for a good few years now if Merlin's finances post-coronavirus aren't up to financing one.
The reason why I said what I did above was because in terms of Merlin's portfolio, I think that a park like Thorpe is definitely more in need of a major new roller coaster, but I think that Alton Towers would be a considerably less risky choice for them to invest into. Everything they've ever built at Alton Towers seems to have been a huge success, whereas at Thorpe, neither Swarm nor DBGT produced the desired returns in recent years.
Benjsh
TS Member
Blackpool is a dying town and visitor numbers dwindle every year. As I'm from Manchester and live close to Blackpool it holds many fond memories for me. However the town hasn't had the investment it's required for decades and it's resulted in what was always a quite tacky but fun day out being even tackier and not always fun. People have voted with their feet.
Morbidly It's also in the top 3 UK towns for suicide numbers and has one of the highest unemployment rates too. I don't think the future is that great for the town or park to be honest.
jon81uk
TS Member
Blackpool has had quite a lot of investment really, the council re-did the promenade inluding the quote artwork opposite the tower. They have refurbished the winter gardens and are planning an extension and conference venue.
Merlin took over management of the Tower and redid the visitor experience, adding a 4D show and new glass floor etc. Merlin also took over the waxworks and opened a Dungeon attraction. Quite a bit has been added to Blackpool in the last 10 years. Yes there is a lot that is still sat empty, but a lot of it is because the town tried to move away from the stag and hen parties that kept nightclubs busy but made the town unappealing for families.
Benjsh
TS Member
Well aware of said improvements but too little too late in my opinion. Also the improvements to the promenade are on the beach side. Made a huge difference but the real issue is on the shop side of the road. It's awful these days. I don't even think it qualifies as tacky anymore. It's an absolute state.
They've not had the investment its needed. Not even close. The town is an absolute mess.