The Four Day Week

[Martin]

I was going to bring up something like Citizen's Income.

Pay everyone (well, most people) an unconditional amount, say £15,000 a year and let everyone be free to spend it how they wish. They'd be free, and encouraged, to work to supplement it if they want. It would give people a lot more time to invest in the community, family and culture and the 'pursuit of happiness'. People who want to work are free to and people who would rather devote their time to charity and voluntary work would be able to do so without financial ruin.

Obviously, those who work and earn over a certain amount would not need the Citizen's Income, so money can be saved there, and it would need quite a big rethink of the current tax structure and things like benefits, public transport and the NHS, but it's definitely the way to go as the current system is becoming more and more out of touch with society.

 

[Fredward]

So wait people get £15,000 for no reason? Where does this money come from?

 

[Martin]

Large income tax on earnings additional to basic income and sales tax on every transaction, and nationalising the bank of England.

It would have to start small as a trial, but if it worked it could be established nationwide.

The basic income would do away with quite a lot of the bill for things like benefits and pensions, which will be replaced, so it's not like it's an extra £15k per most people on top of the system, it's a completely new system.

Many people will choose to earn more money, stimulating the economy, and people with a lot of money, earning say, above £50k, won't need their £15k, so that money can be spent on the community or given to people who need a bit more money, such as the seriously disabled.

Obviously, it would take quite an effort to overhaul the system to support this change, but it should be possible. The benefits of it would be incredible. It would wipe out poverty in this country over night and revive that 'community spirit' thing that people are always going on about now existing any more.

 

[Dar]

Where would the incentive be for people to earn such large amounts though? If they know that anything they earn over £15k is going to be heavily taxed, I imagine they would just not bother.

[TheMan-style disclaimer: I am neither for nor against this. I am just thinking about the other side of the coin. I am am sat firmly on the fence.[/TheMan-style disclaimer ]

If businesses know that people would get a lot of money for free, they would exploit this and not bother paying any more. These loopholes could be legislated out, but there will always be some way for businesses to wiggle out of any extra obligations if they can.

Also, £15,000? That seems a lot to be getting tax-free?

 

[Fredward]

Giving people £15,000 every year for doing nothing is probably the most irritating idea I have heard. And punish people who actually do work with heavy taxes to pay for these people who do nothing.

I get annoyed enough with people hovering on job seekers for many years, while not actively searching or accepting jobs. So you say everyone goes on job seekers....

Logic... that idea has none.


Sorry if I'm getting the wrong end of the stick, but that's the impression of what I'm getting put into simple form.

 

[Meat Pie]

Fredward - In all cases where a Citizen's Income has been implemented, there has been increased levels of employment since people know that the money they earn can be spent on things they enjoy, not wasted on life necessities such as heating bills.

Dar - A truly progressive taxation system doesn't heavily tax people earning anything over 15k. A progressive tax system takes income proportionally. But income tax isn't the only form of tax that would pay for the Citizen's Income. Clearing up tax avoidance and properly implementing a heavy corporation tax would pay for a massive chunk of this reform.

Now we could discuss whether such a tax system is right or wrong, but it is conceivable that we could have a system where work is rewarding, and refusing to work until you find a job which respects their employees with decent standards of pay and rights won't leave you destitute.

If businesses know that people would get a lot of money for free, they would exploit this and not bother paying any more. These loopholes could be legislated out, but there will always be some way for businesses to wiggle out of any extra obligations if they can.

If workers know that they can hold out for better, Businesses will be forced to improve their standards.

 

[Fredward]

So what is the point of bills in the first place if the government pays for it?

This whole plan seems like it will only be good for the people who are happy to live off the essential £15,000 everyone who want more just seem to massively lose out paying for these people.

 

[BigT]

Hi I'm back!!!

I've got to say this is the most stupidest thing I've ever heard, pay people £15k to do nothing until they find a job they like. What?

Everyone will just sit at home doing nothing, businesses will shut because they can't get staff and if they do find people gullible enough then they will be taxed so hard via corporation tax it wont be worth their while.
Big business will go elsewhere and the country will be on its knees.
The government has no money, remember that, it only distributes what it steals of people who work.

And then what about an incentive to the people who come up with an idea; sell, borrow and beg for money to start a business, then work all the hours god sends to make it work.
Why bother?

 

[Sam]

The government has no money, remember that, it only distributes what it steals of people who work.

Didn't realise we had Ayn Rand on the forum...

 

[Meat Pie]

So what is the point of bills in the first place if the government pays for it?

Errr... Well because unfortunately living on the planet requires the use of resources, and to be able to source those resources someone has to do the work, and they need to be paid. This way they get paid and people don't have the majority of their income swallowed up by it.

I sense you are being purposefully selective when you say that it will only be good for the unemployed, when it would obviously improve the standards of living of the low paid by a substantial amount. The Citizen's income increases the value of working as the rewards you take away have a bigger impact on your ability to enjoy your life. I don't know anyone who would choose to live on £15,000 a year when an accessible job would pay enough to significantly improve their lives under this system.

You constantly hear Tories going on about making work pay, and this is what this does. But instead of snatching money from the unemployed, it makes the benefit to working greater.

Although I must stress that with the societal situation as it is, the unemployed aren't on the whole choosing not to work, it's that the jobs are not there to take. A Citizens Income would help these people since Jobseekers is not enough to support yourself by any reasonable standard. Combined with this topic's original point of the four day week which would increase the number of jobs, a Citizen's income would see unemployment race down. More jobs, higher pay, better treatment of workers.

It really seems like an obvious win, win, win situation.

 

[Fredward]

It's not an obvious win win situation, This will only benefit the ones who do not want to earn more or much more then £15,000. And I mean that. Mainly because if you do choose to work, you will be heavily taxed it will be pointless. I do not want to my hard earned pay to go towards people who want £15,000 for nothing, regardless whether they are working to supplement that.

You constantly hear Tories going on about

lol, no I don't. Don't give a damn about listening to any political groups, I don't vote. "last I don't vote" part was mainly for trolling reasons.

the unemployed aren't on the whole choosing not to work

You'd be suprised about that... A lot of people get offered jobs, but refuse them due to having to get up at 8 or 9. or because they can get less then what they get paid with job seekers/not enough to warrant them getting off job seekers.

Obviously this isn't everyone, but there is a lot of people with that mindset and can we blame them? You'll be surprised how many jobs are out there, but just aren't easy to get without work experience and aren't exactly dream jobs.

but that is an alternative topic.


Either way, I can't be bothered with this topic anymore, this whole have £15,000 for doing NOTHING is a stupid idea. You can reply in kind, but my reply's will now be only half arsed.

 

[GaryH]

Sorry, but giving people £15,000 for nothing has to be the most absurd idea I have ever heard in my life.

Out of interest, will people coming into the UK to live also be entitled to this money? I mean, a lot of them already get a sizeable chunk of money from the state!

I really don't see how it would have any impact whatsoever on the unemployment rates or salaries of workers when there is a global recession on, countries, governments, people are not buying, there isn't the money, and there certainally isn't the money to hand out even more cash!!! Also, do you really think companies will bother paying people decent salaries when they know there are plenty of people out there happy to be paid £15k a year??!!

I'd rather they give people £15,000 to go and get a decent education in University, so people get a reward for their hard works, a sense of achievement, good careers and actually have a future where they get rewarded for their hard work in their jobs by means of a decent salary as opposed to bringing up future generations where they know if they do nothing, they still get a wad of money!!!!!

Crazy.

 

[Martin]

Out of interest, will people coming into the UK to live also be entitled to this money? I mean, a lot of them already get a sizeable chunk of money from the state!

DEY TOOK UR JURBS!!!!11!1

So, you can either get £15k (much less than the UK average income) for nothing, or you can go out and earn more. Even if it was a low hours, low wage job that only paid 10k a year. £15k or £25k? Or get a better paid job and earn even more. Obviously there'd have to be a cut off where they say they no longer qualify for the £15k, but only when earning enough supplementary income to live well without it.

Wages are not increasing at anything close to the rate productivity is increasing. This would force employees to raise wages, encouraging people to work.

 

[BigT]

The government has no money, remember that, it only distributes what it steals of people who work.

Didn't realise we had Ayn Rand on the forum...

Who, what, where,how?

I have no idea who you are talking about but I'm sure it's supposed to be insulting.
Coming from you I'll take it as a complement.

Either way, I can't be bothered with this topic anymore, this whole have £15,000 for doing NOTHING is a stupid idea. You can reply in kind, but my reply's will now be only half arsed.

Be careful there our Fred, people get warnings on here for less, trust me I should know!

 

[Meat Pie]

Hi I'm back!!!

I've got to say this is the most stupidest thing I've ever heard, pay people £15k to do nothing until they find a job they like. What?

Everyone will just sit at home doing nothing, businesses will shut because they can't get staff and if they do find people gullible enough then they will be taxed so hard via corporation tax it wont be worth their while.
Big business will go elsewhere and the country will be on its knees.
The government has no money, remember that, it only distributes what it steals of people who work.

And then what about an incentive to the people who come up with an idea; sell, borrow and beg for money to start a business, then work all the hours god sends to make it work.
Why bother?

This is the silliest scaremongering I've heard for some time.

As I've already said, people wouldn't be sitting at home as very, very, very, few people want to live on £15,000 a year. It would be just about comfortable, but wouldn't really provide for an enjoyable active life. When surveyed, people pretty much unanimously want to live an active life. But the rewards of work at the lower end of the payscale never goes to the workers, it goes to paying their necessities rather then what they enjoy. A citizen's income empowers the worker to make the employer offer a fair deal.

As if big businesses would leave a country that they are still making profit in. Tax just takes it's fair share from that ridiculous profit margin, and they always make these empty threats of up and leaving, but I very much doubt McDonalds would shut all their thousands of doors because they aren't making quite as much as they were before the progressive tax. Besides, countries are much more than the international companies that invest in them and a localist market would easily take the big business's place.

As for the incentive of creating business, you are completely bonkers if you think having a dent in the extravagant pay of an executive or a businessman would convince him to give it up and sit on £15,000 a year. I can't see any of the major businesses owners deciding to give up their big wages (post tax), because the people dared to proportionally tax their income.

If these businessmen are as clever and brilliant as they claim to be, they wouldn't cut their own noses off to spite their face.

It's not an obvious win win situation, This will only benefit the ones who do not want to earn more or much more then £15,000. And I mean that. Mainly because if you do choose to work, you will be heavily taxed it will be pointless. I do not want to my hard earned pay to go towards people who want £15,000 for nothing, regardless whether they are working to supplement that.

You constantly hear Tories going on about

lol, no I don't. Don't give a damn about listening to any political groups, I don't vote. "last I don't vote" part was mainly for trolling reasons.

the unemployed aren't on the whole choosing not to work

You'd be suprised about that... A lot of people get offered jobs, but refuse them due to having to get up at 8 or 9. or because they can get less then what they get paid with job seekers/not enough to warrant them getting off job seekers.

Obviously this isn't everyone, but there is a lot of people with that mindset and can we blame them? You'll be surprised how many jobs are out there, but just aren't easy to get without work experience and aren't exactly dream jobs.

but that is an alternative topic.


Either way, I can't be bothered with this topic anymore, this whole have £15,000 for doing NOTHING is a stupid idea. You can reply in kind, but my reply's will now be only half arsed.

1) You are putting words in my mouth which I never said. People earning over £15,000 wouldn't be heavily taxed. Tax will be proportional to income, which it isn't now since the current benefit system doesn't require those earning millions to pay anywhere near their fair share. To make a Citizen's income work it would fall upon the rich and super-rich to be taxed proportionally. Only those in the upper-brackets would have any significant change, and even then they would still remain wealthier than the rest of society. You are inventing this scenario where massive taxation of everyone over £15,000 would be necessary, when that simply is not the case.

Also, it's not £15,000 'for nothing', it's £15,000 to free them from wage slavery. At the moment people are stuck in dead end jobs where the employer has all the power to work them to the bone. 5 days a week for a pittance. No-one knows this more than my mum who has been forced into the position of working 7 days a week just to cover what most would consider basic living standards.

You can sit back there and moan about 'your' money going to help people like my mum, but if you were in the same position as her, you would recognise the value in the idea and accept it as a necessary step to an economic democracy.

2) That second part about not listening to political groups is completely obtuse. I clearly wasn't saying you specifically listen to them, It was just a turn of phrase to introduce what the Conservatives yapp on about.

3) I don't believe it. There is probably a tiny minority of unemployed people, but most, like myself, are desperate to find work but when searching 5 hours every day (weekends included), but only find 3 - 9 (max) positions to apply for a week. For each of those positions 100s of applicants flock to them. There's no way that there are even enough jobs to even offer to people who then turn them down.

4) The Citizen's Income is not a stupid idea, and it's a shame you are unwilling to commit time to arguing your point in a non-half arsed way. I'm always up to be convinced that I'm wrong (even though I rarely am ).

 

[Sam]

Meat Pie, you seem to be arguing with a man who sees all forms of taxation as the government "stealing" from working people. I think debating with people of the Randian extreme far-right like this is a bit pointless... logic and reason went out the window several posts ago.

 

[Wilsy]

Remember to keep things civil please people

 

[BigT]

Well I think it's nice that Meat Pie takes the time and effort to construct such a reply and thank him for that.

Obviously the far right, BNP, nazi loving, homophobic, female hating person I am doesn't agree and I will post later when I have time to reply to Meat Pie.

 

[Martin]

Meat Pie, you seem to be arguing with a man who sees all forms of taxation as the government "stealing" from working people. I think debating with people of the Randian extreme far-right like this is a bit pointless... logic and reason went out the window several posts ago.

I know it wasn't entirely serious, but I don't think responding like that helps the pro-citizen's wage argument or the discussion as a whole.

 

[Nick]

Well I think it's nice that Meat Pie takes the time and effort to construct such a reply and thank him for that.

Obviously the far right, BNP, nazi loving, homophobic, female hating person I am doesn't agree and I will post later when I have time to reply to Meat Pie.

Add Daily Mail reader, and your his ideal person.