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The Gay Marriage Topic!

Sam said:
I've been worrying a lot about this recently. I'm really worried that it could go the other way, if reasonable nice people don't speak up.
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I really wouldn't worry. It's going to happen. The momentum is building, even in America where same sex marriage actually gained ground in several states in the elections.

And as for the Christian bus driver, what an idiot. You can tell that kind of thought is going extinct just by it being reported elsewhere, but not in a 'PC gone mad' kinda way but more 'what the hell is he thinking'.

I also like seeing those 'Some people are gay' posters on buses. As much as I dislike Sonewall, I've gotta give them credit for quite a successful campaign.
 
Having a former Prime Minister announce his support is a huge boost for our campaign! :D

Sir John Major applauds David Cameron’s ‘courageous’ support for religious same-sex marriages

Sir John Major has thrown his support behind same-sex marriages in churches and says David Cameron’s backing of the reform is “genuine”.

The former prime minister has released a statement through Freedom to Marry, a newly formed group of senior Conservatives in favour of allowing religious organisations the option to offer marriages for gay couples.

“The prime minister’s instinct to support equal marriage is a courageous and genuine attempt to offer security and comfort to people who – at present – may be together, yet feel apart,” said Sir John.

“I fully understand that there are many who will find this difficult to accept, as will the churches.

“But the prime minister has made it clear that the churches will be free to make their own decisions upon whether to conduct such marriages – and that is entirely the right approach.”

Sir John, 69, added: “We live in the 21st century and must move on: every couple should have the opportunity and the right to formalise their relationship.”

Members of Freedom to Marry include Education Secretary Michael Gove, London Mayor Boris Johnson, Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin, former defence minister Nicholas Soames, and the influential editor of the ConservativeHome website Tim Montgomerie.

The group was formed by Nick Herbert, the former police minister and current Conservative MP for Arundel & South Downs. He resigned from the government in September following David Cameron’s first major reshuffle.

David Cameron has promised a change in the law in England and Wales by the next election in May 2015.

Speaking in favour of equal marriage on Friday, Mr Cameron said he did not want gay couples to be excluded from a “great institution”.

However, more than 100 of his MPs are thought to be against the idea.
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Here's an interesting article in support of gay marriage by my local MP, Stephen Gilbert, taken from Gay Star News.

Equal marriage will send a clear signal to society

As the UK government confirms plans for gay marriage equality in England and Wales, Liberal Democrat MP Stephen Gilbert says it will gradually improve society

Equal marriage for same-sex couples in the civil law, and the chance for religious groups to choose to offer same-sex religious marriage if they want to – it’s a step that will give legal equality to same-sex couples in Britain for the first time whilst protecting religious freedom.

The LGBT community has come a long way in the 43 years since the Stonewall riots in New York City. Over the last four decades, and for many more years before that, we’ve seen thousands of innocent people criminalized and jailed, hundreds subjected to medical torment in the search of a ‘cure’ and scores of thousands of lives wasted by individuals in denial hiding from themselves in the dark. Their only ‘crime’: to love someone of the same gender and to want to express that love.

Equal marriage will open up a cornerstone institution within our community to couples who want to make a serious commitment to each other and solidify the expression of their love for each other. It will allow lesbian and gay young people to imagine a life where they fall in love, get married and live happily ever after in just the same way that their straight friends can. It will send a clear signal that being gay, lesbian or trans is not wrong.

But equal marriage is not the answer for all the LGBT community’s woes. The extension of the franchise to women hasn’t yet delivered equal pay for women and the end of apartheid hasn’t yet ended racism, but these steps did change those debates and so will the extension of same-sex marriage.

Still too many gay children are beaten and bullied by their school-mates or kicked out of the family home by their parents. Still too many lesbians are denied promotion at work or told their custom isn’t wanted in a hotel or shop. Still too many people find it difficult to come out to colleagues and live a half-life in the shadows.

Legal equality will, however, be a powerful weapon to help end the pernicious sniggering that is still too common in front rooms, boardrooms, classroom across the country. It will give confidence and support to those people across our country who today, right now, are struggling to find a way to tell their family and friends for the first time in fear of the reaction. And it strikes the right balance between religious freedom and individual equality.

It is, of course, right that religious groups shouldn’t be compelled to offer equal marriage – freedom of religion is a core value too. We don’t compel churches to offer marriage to straight divorcees who wish to remarry and we must not compel them to offer same-sex equal marriage if they choose not to. We know that many faiths will want to offer equal marriage and it is clearly right that the government doesn’t stand in their way either.

Equality has always had its enemies – and the flat-earthers will no doubt rush so far to the right in opposition to this that they will be in danger of falling off the edge. But opponents are out of step with public opinion and they are now out of time. Over the next four decades equal marriage will help our community tackle the serious issues that remain, but in a lot less time than that people will wonder what all the fuss was about.

Stephen Gilbert is the openly gay MP for St Austell and Newquay and proposed the equal marriage motion to Liberal Democrat conference in September 2010.
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Regarding the balance between LGBT rights and religious freedoms, I think the proposals have got it spot-on, although the debate in the House of Commons today has revealed that the Catholic Church (unsurprisingly) and the Church of England (more surprisingly) will not be allowed to conduct same-sex weddings. I can understand the Catholic Church not being allowed to conduct same-sex weddings, as it clearly goes against their doctrine and beliefs, but the Church of England is slightly more puzzling. There is a wide spectrum of beliefs in the CofE, with some churches being more conservative than others. Surely those churches who think equal marriage should be allowed should therefore be allowed to conduct same-sex weddings. Otherwise, the whole concept of individual churches/mosques/synagogues/temples etc. being allowed to conduct same-sex weddings is defeated by this blanket ban on the Catholic Church and the CofE.
 
The Church of England must feel like they're on a bit of a bigoted roll after striking down proposals for women bishops.
 
Splendid news here!

A poll for the Mail on Sunday, a newspaper that is formally opposed to equal marriage has found that the majority of the public support changing the law. The poll also found that half of Conservative voters support David Cameron’s plans for gay equality.

The poll found that 60% agreed with making same-sex marriage legal. A further 21% said that they only support civil partnerships for gay couples. Only 19 % said they were opposed to any legal recognition of gay relationships.

50% of those who voted Conservative at the last general election said they supported changing the law. While 56% of those who say they will vote Conservative if there was a general election tomorrow said they support changing the law.

Damian Lyons Lowe of Survation, the polling company that conducted the research said: “The results suggest Mr Cameron’s supporters are increasingly socially liberal. If he changes his mind, traditionally minded Conservatives who have defected to UKIP and other parties may return to the fold, but others who like his more progressive approach may walk out.”

Asked the leading question ‘Do you agree marriage is a sacred between only a man and a woman’, 42% said they agreed , while 42% said they disagreed. 16% said they didn’t know.

Only 53% of voters said they agreed with Conservative MP David TC Davies when he said: “I think most parents would prefer their children not to be gay.”

58% said they agreed that the Church of England had the right to oppose equal marriage.

Interestingly 14% of those asked believed that David Cameron supports marriage for gay couples because he believes it is right. 67% said that it was because he wants to win trendy votes. Last week, in an editorial, the Daily Mail said: “The Mail unreservedly accepts that David Cameron’s brave stand on gay marriage is based on principle.


“He genuinely believes homosexuals should have the same rights as heterosexuals.”

The poll also asked voters how they would vote in a general election. Labour is ahead on 38% , with the Conservatives on 30, UKIP – the only party to oppose equal marriage is on 14% and the Lib Dems are on nine per cent.

In an editorial, the Mail on Sunday said: “The Mail on Sunday’s Survation poll on attitudes towards same-sex marriage shows a clear majority in favour of something that would have been greeted with widespread shock and dislike as recently as 25 years ago. The Prime Minister will be interested to see how little difference the issue makes to support for his party.”
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Source: Pink News

It's a lovely sense of relief when the tabloids are proven wrong by their own audience :)
 
I've just discovered some very interesting news from the Facebook group 'Nothing Holy About Hatred', dedicated to fighting homophobia in religious communities.

Prominent evangelical pastor Reverend Steve Chalke declares support for monogamous same sex relationships

Decision which will send shockwaves through Britain’s evangelical community

A prominent evangelical pastor has taken the highly unusual step of publicly declaring his support for monogamous same sex relationships in a decision which will send shockwaves through Britain’s evangelical community.

Reverend Steve Chalke, head of the Oasis Church in Waterloo, made the public declaration in a lengthy article on his charity’s own website explaining his theological reasoning for abandoning opposition to gay relationships.

His decision comes at a time of small but growing acceptance of homosexuality among some evangelicals. Earlier this month The Independent reported how a handful of evangelical pastors and churches were beginning to welcome gay followers with open arms but largely in secret for fear of the backlash it might create.

In a deeply personal and heartfelt plea, Rev Chalke criticises Christianity’s traditional rejection of “faithful gay relationships” saying it has left far too many people feeling “vulnerable and isolated.”

“When we refuse to make room for gay people to live in loving, stable relationships, we consign them to lives of loneness, secrecy and fear,” the Baptist minister writes. “It's one thing to be critical of a promiscuous lifestyle - but shouldn't the Church consider nurturing positive models for permanent and monogamous homosexual relationships?”

He recognises many fellow evangelicals will be incensed by his stance. “Some will think that I have strayed from scripture - that I am no longer an evangelical,” he notes. “I have formed my view, however, not out of any disregard for the Bible's authority, but by way of grappling with it and, through prayerful reflection, seeking to take it seriously.”

Much of his article – the extended version of which runs to 5,000 words – centres around the theological and scriptural justifications for accepting loving homosexual relationships – something which is deeply important to evangelical communities who place enormous importance on Biblical purity.

Rev Chalke argues that through scriptural reinterpretation, those who claim the Bible condemns all forms of homosexuality will eventually become the minority view in the same way that those who advocated Biblical justifications for slavery and a secondary role for women have also become minorities.

And in a damning critique of his own community he even blames Christian stigmatisation of homosexuals as something which has caused genuine physical harm.

“People’s lives are at stake,” he says. “Numerous studies show that suicide rates among gay people, especially young people, are comparatively high. Church leaders sometimes use this data to argue that homosexuality is unhealthy when tragically it's anti-gay stigma, propped up by Church attitudes, which, all too often, drives these statistics.”

Fellow evangelicals who support a more tolerant approach towards homosexuality have described Rev Chalke’s public declaration as a potential “game changer”.

Simon Barrow, co-director of the Christian thinktank Ekklesia, commented: “Chalke's position cuts across the standard stereotype within both the media and many sections of the church: namely that sexuality is a straightforward liberal-versus-conservative theological issue. Instead, his theological plea to the churches is solidly biblical in its assumptions and focused on the person of Christ, but the outcomes he reaches on this basis are relational and inclusive.”

Meanwhile the prominent American evangelical pastor Tony Campolo, said: “Steve’s public declaration in support of Civil Partnerships will cause reverberations far and wide. His statement represents the first time that a major evangelist and leader in the Evangelical community has come out in support of same-sex relationships.”

Campolo retains what he describes as a “conservative” position on homosexuality but he has long been willing to dialogue with those – including his wife and fellow preacher Peggy Campolo – who take a more open view to loving same sex relationships. Alongside fellow American pastors Jay Bakker and Brian McClaren, they have argued for a much greater willingness among evangelicals to be more tolerant of homosexuality. Chalke’s addition is the first time a prominent evangelical pastor with an active church congregation in Britain has come out publicly along similar lines.
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Source

This is big. Chalke's a very prominent figure among Evangelical Christians, and as the article rightly points out, it's going to create a gulf among Evangelicals. To have the support of a prominent religious leader can only be a good thing for the issue of gay marriage! :)
 
Well good luck with that, although it has to be said is that really the most important thing that needs discussing right now?
Maybe it is I don't know but it's seems like a waste of time to me but then I'm not gay so wouldn't know.
 
If not now, then when? It's been put off for far too long. What if it was black people who couldn't yet marry? That seems ridiculous now but it's in the same vein!
 
If something is relevant, then it should be discussed in Parliament and voted on. Doesn't matter whether it is at the top of the priority list or not. The Government is a big enough institution to look at more than one topic
 
I am not a homosexual but this has my full support. The UK is a free democracy, gay marriage should have been legalised years ago!
 
Bear said:
If not now, then when? It's been put off for far too long. What if it was black people who couldn't yet marry? That seems ridiculous now but it's in the same vein!
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But gay people can already marry can they not? I've still yet to hear an argument about what difference it will make so why do they need to debate it.
Just change the name of civil partnerships to marriage and everyone's happy, why does it need debating?
 
Because in law, they are different things. As far as I can tell, that is all this debate is trying to achieve; to change the name 'civil partnership' to 'marriage'.

Although civil partnerships will still be offered, but to both gay and straight couples who have an aversion to being 'married'.
 
You've just answered your own question. Civil Partnerships are not marriage, and therefore it is a case of a different name/facility for those deemed to be different. It's facilitating a social segregation. This bill will enhance equality and demonstrate that a persons sexuality does not mean they are an unequal citizen.

If, in my eyes, people do not understand this point then they are by definition homophobic.
 
BigT said:
Bear said:
If not now, then when? It's been put off for far too long. What if it was black people who couldn't yet marry? That seems ridiculous now but it's in the same vein!
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But gay people can already marry can they not? I've still yet to hear an argument about what difference it will make so why do they need to debate it.
Just change the name of civil partnerships to marriage and everyone's happy, why does it need debating?
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Being that a civil partnership has a different name (but is practically the same), it sets gay people apart from our straight co-folk, even if it's just on a really niggly basic level. This is why it's so ridiculous to think that it's taken this long to change!
 
BigT said:
But gay people can already marry can they not?
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Gay people cannot currently marry people of the same gender, no. They can get a civil partnership, which is a different institution.

BigT said:
Just change the name of civil partnerships to marriage and everyone's happy, why does it need debating?
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Because the mechanisms of marriage are dictated by various acts of Parliament over the years, so to allow people to marry other people of the same gender requires an Act of Parliament. Simple as that.
 
EuroSatch said:
You've just answered your own question. Civil Partnerships are not marriage, and therefore it is a case of a different name/facility for those deemed to be different. It's facilitating a social segregation. This bill will enhance equality and demonstrate that a persons sexuality does not mean they are an unequal citizen.

If, in my eyes, people do not understand this point then they are by definition homophobic.
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No no no, don't even go there, I'm asking a question because I don't know the answer. Sam has answered the question and that's it.
 
Civil partnerships are not equivalent to marriage, we covered that a long time ago when the topic first kicked off. And it's an issue because it's human rights, plain and simple human rights that have been denied because religion allegedly 'owns' the rights to marriage, when it was never a religious practice at all, and any sexuality beyond straight is 'un-natural'.

Imagine if you weren't allowed to marry because you were straight and you were seen as untrustworthy and adulterous to any future partners, that a civil partnership would have to do even though you wouldn't be allowed to officially call your partner your wife. Imagine if you weren't allowed to have children because you were straight and children were being told a disgusting stigma that straight people are a danger to society. Imagine if you weren't given the right to be who you truly are, be loved for who you truly are because you were straight and it was an offence in most countries to be straight, even jailed and murdered for being such a sexuality because it's not seen as 'natural'.

Would you honestly allow somebody of the opposite gender to tell you that isn't an issue at all because you've got a civil partnership and that's enough equality for the rest of your life? Would you fight for your rights then?
 
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