The I Feel Down Topic.

[Matt N]

@Matt.GC That's a great post, and I agree with a fair amount of it, from my own experiences.

I won't lie, though, it's also making me worried about my own circumstance. I worry that I've put my eggs slightly too much into the educational basket. I've done GCSEs, A Levels and an undergraduate degree, which I got relatively favourable grades in all of for the most part, and I'm currently doing a postgraduate degree. I'm 6 years older than @The_bup, and am in the position where entering the world of full-time work now looms dauntingly close and I feel very unprepared for it.

In the spirit of what your post above says, I'm very much prepared for the prospect of my first job out of my MSc (I finish in September) being a minimum wage, "unskilled" (I don't agree with this term, but I can't think of a better one) Tesco-type job. I've applied to some of the bigger industry-specific graduate schemes, but I've already been rejected by 2 (I'm still waiting to hear back from the other one), and while I know graduate schemes are the most competitive of competitive jobs and not the be all and end all of skilled graduate employment, my utterly lacklustre performance in the 2 graduate scheme applications I've had back so far does not fill me with confidence that I have what it takes to succeed.

I know very well that beggars can't be choosers, and I'm in a position where I'm wholly average at best in the grand scheme of things and have practically no leverage to be anything other than a beggar, so I'm starting to think that it might end up having to be "unskilled" work for me to begin with. And if that's what's needed, I have no qualms about doing it. But this fills me with worry, as people have told me that it's "employability suicide" to do this sort of work for too long after uni, and that if I stay in this sort of work for too long, I'll never get out and be able to carve out the skilled career I want. To me, any job seems better than no job, but apparently employers frown on this sort of "unskilled" work after uni if you want to get into a skilled career. I just have this immense fear that this year is truly make or break if I ever want a "skilled" career in industry, and that if I screw it up, I'll never get this chance again.

At the same time, I also have this immense fear lurking in the back of my head that my attempted entry into the professional world will expose me as utterly incompetent and prove that everything I've ever achieved has largely been due to luck or me managing to chance my way through ("fake it 'till you make it", as they say). While I've achieved things on paper, I always have this voice in my head telling me that I didn't truly deserve them, that I just managed to get lucky, and that work will expose me as some kind of fraud.

This is why I absolutely hate thinking about the future... at this point in my life, perhaps more than any other, it just absolutely terrifies me.

 

[rob666]

Try looking at the future as only tomorrow and the day after, and plan for the "real" future within that timeframe.
"I know I'm trying to head towards x, but that is miles away, this week I will try to get on with this and that in preparation."

Worked for me when I had big turds on the horizon.
That and going on the odd rollercoaster.

 

[NuttySquirrel]

@Matt.GC That's a great post, and I agree with a fair amount of it, from my own experiences.

I won't lie, though, it's also making me worried about my own circumstance. I worry that I've put my eggs slightly too much into the educational basket. I've done GCSEs, A Levels and an undergraduate degree, which I got relatively favourable grades in all of for the most part, and I'm currently doing a postgraduate degree. I'm 6 years older than @The_bup, and am in the position where entering the world of full-time work now looms dauntingly close and I feel very unprepared for it.

In the spirit of what your post above says, I'm very much prepared for the prospect of my first job out of my MSc (I finish in September) being a minimum wage, "unskilled" (I don't agree with this term, but I can't think of a better one) Tesco-type job. I've applied to some of the bigger industry-specific graduate schemes, but I've already been rejected by 2 (I'm still waiting to hear back from the other one), and while I know graduate schemes are the most competitive of competitive jobs and not the be all and end all of skilled graduate employment, my utterly lacklustre performance in the 2 graduate scheme applications I've had back so far does not fill me with confidence that I have what it takes to succeed.

I know very well that beggars can't be choosers, and I'm in a position where I'm wholly average at best in the grand scheme of things and have practically no leverage to be anything other than a beggar, so I'm starting to think that it might end up having to be "unskilled" work for me to begin with. And if that's what's needed, I have no qualms about doing it. But this fills me with worry, as people have told me that it's "employability suicide" to do this sort of work for too long after uni, and that if I stay in this sort of work for too long, I'll never get out and be able to carve out the skilled career I want. To me, any job seems better than no job, but apparently employers frown on this sort of "unskilled" work after uni if you want to get into a skilled career. I just have this immense fear that this year is truly make or break if I ever want a "skilled" career in industry, and that if I screw it up, I'll never get this chance again.

At the same time, I also have this immense fear lurking in the back of my head that my attempted entry into the professional world will expose me as utterly incompetent and prove that everything I've ever achieved has largely been due to luck or me managing to chance my way through ("fake it 'till you make it", as they say). While I've achieved things on paper, I always have this voice in my head telling me that I didn't truly deserve them, that I just managed to get lucky, and that work will expose me as some kind of fraud.

This is why I absolutely hate thinking about the future... at this point in my life, perhaps more than any other, it just absolutely terrifies me.

Actually if there was anything in @Matt.GC's post I didn't agree with it was not to study anything too specific as a degree. So many degree courses, while interesting, don't actually have a clear path to progression to a good career, making you no more prepared for employment at 21 than you were at 18.

I think you've made sensible choices @Matt N in picking a degree course that gives you sought-after skills and then continuing to a Master's than gives you a specialism. By all accounts, you are excelling academically and you work hard.

I'm concerned that you feel disheartened by only two rejections to graduate schemes. Those positions are extremely competitive and they'll receive applications from dozens of strong applicants. You are assuming you didn't get the position due to a "lacklustre performance" but have you asked for feedback to determine if this was actually true in either case?

I wouldn't advise rushing too quickly into non-skilled work, unless you really need the cash. It takes time to find your first job and there will be more rejections - don't take these personally, but look at each one as a learning experience. What did you do well? What could you have done better? Does your uni have a careers center that can help you develop interview skills?

You've said that you want to go into industry, but - if I may say so - you do seem the type that would be suited to an academic career. Many such positions will be funded by industry partners in any case, so there's good money to be had, and quite often the work you'll be doing is a lot more interesting than in employment. Consider all options available to you before fixing on one direction or another.

 

[rob666]

Come on Matt, get yourself a job in a park for a while to pass the time, you will be chief exec, or whatever they are called this week, within a decade.

 

[Matt N]

Come on Matt, get yourself a job in a park for a while to pass the time, you will be chief exec, or whatever they are called this week, within a decade.

Unfortunately, I don’t live anywhere near any parks… even my nearest thing fitting the loose definition of “theme park”, Brean Theme Park, is a good hour’s drive away from home. If I lived anywhere other than the West Country, that might be a sound suggestion!

Actually if there was anything in @Matt.GC's post I didn't agree with it was not to study anything too specific as a degree. So many degree courses, while interesting, don't actually have a clear path to progression to a good career, making you no more prepared for employment at 21 than you were at 18.

I think you've made sensible choices @Matt N in picking a degree course that gives you sought-after skills and then continuing to a Master's than gives you a specialism. By all accounts, you are excelling academically and you work hard.

I'm concerned that you feel disheartened by only two rejections to graduate schemes. Those positions are extremely competitive and they'll receive applications from dozens of strong applicants. You are assuming you didn't get the position due to a "lacklustre performance" but have you asked for feedback to determine if this was actually true in either case?

I wouldn't advise rushing too quickly into non-skilled work, unless you really need the cash. It takes time to find your first job and there will be more rejections - don't take these personally, but look at each one as a learning experience. What did you do well? What could you have done better? Does your uni have a careers center that can help you develop interview skills?

You've said that you want to go into industry, but - if I may say so - you do seem the type that would be suited to an academic career. Many such positions will be funded by industry partners in any case, so there's good money to be had, and quite often the work you'll be doing is a lot more interesting than in employment. Consider all options available to you before fixing on one direction or another.

I picked the degree I did at 18 because rightly or wrongly, I thought it offered the sweet spot between being narrow enough to carve out some sort of employable specialist skill set, but broad enough that it kept my options open, as I didn’t really know what I wanted to do when I was in Year 13. I sometimes wonder if I went too broad picking a Computer Science degree in hindsight, though… having seen how hard my sister had it looking for marketing jobs after her Journalism degree (she’s found one now, but it took her a good couple of months and applying to many, many different jobs), it’s made me fear that I will take even longer, as she had more extracurriculars under her belt than I do. That was part of my motivation for doing an MSc; I thought it might help me become more specialist in Data Science specifically, and particularly when combined with the chance I could do an industry-linked dissertation over the summer (my course offers this option, and I think I’m going to try and take it if possible), I thought that might make me look more desirable. I still worry, though…

The one rejection I got gave me a feedback report that said my strengths were “growth” and “collaboration” and my weakness was “counterpoint”. The other I got said that I was rejected due to “other applicants better matching the role”.

The thing I always think about academic work is that I don’t feel like I have enough of a burning passion for a specific area to do something like a PhD. From what I’ve read about doing a PhD, it’s 5-7 more years of little to no money, as well as a very intense workload, so you really need that deep passion to pursue one specific thing for 5-7 years, and I’m not sure I have that. I currently feel reasonably strongly that my MSc will be the end of my full-time academic journey for the time being, and that my next step after it should be into the world of industry and earning money. Although with that being said, I’d also be reluctant to rule anything out entirely; I said until midway through second year that I’d never do a Master’s, so who knows, really?

Try looking at the future as only tomorrow and the day after, and plan for the "real" future within that timeframe.
"I know I'm trying to head towards x, but that is miles away, this week I will try to get on with this and that in preparation."

Worked for me when I had big turds on the horizon.
That and going on the odd rollercoaster.

I honestly think that may be a way forward for me, Rob. I’m someone who likes having things meticulously planned out and knowing exactly what’s coming rather than just doing things impulsively on a whim without thinking them through, but I’m also not someone who can confidently stand up and make plans for the distant future, simply because it terrifies me and so much is unknown.

Since the age of about 16 (since GCSEs, really), I’ve tried to only plan out the relatively foreseeable future (i.e. next year or so, or next professional “stage”), and it has actually worked in my favour reasonably well thus far! I’ve had A Levels, a degree and an MSc fall into place using this sort of thinking, so there’s clearly some merit in that approach.

 

[NuttySquirrel]

The thing I always think about academic work is that I don’t feel like I have enough of a burning passion for a specific area to do something like a PhD. From what I’ve read about doing a PhD, it’s 5-7 more years of little to no money, as well as a very intense workload, so you really need that deep passion to pursue one specific thing for 5-7 years, and I’m not sure I have that. I currently feel reasonably strongly that my MSc will be the end of my full-time academic journey for the time being, and that my next step after it should be into the world of industry and earning money. Although with that being said, I’d also be reluctant to rule anything out entirely; I said until midway through second year that I’d never do a Master’s, so who knows, really?

A PhD would typically be 3-4 years. Anyone who spends 7 years on one is doing it wrong!

It's a myth that there's no money in a PhD, in your sector there are likely to be many funded PhD opportunities, often with sponsorship from industry. My other half did a sponsored PhD at Bristol uni which gave him a decent, non-taxable income for four years and the opportunity to do a placement at the sponsoring industry partner. Had he chosen to, he could have taken a job with them at the end of the four years, but decided to continue in academia as a research assistant.

You do of course have to have an interest in your subject, but it can be very rewarding to become an expert in something. You've also got to be good at working alone and disciplining yourself to set your own goals and work towards them because your supervisor isn't going to do this for you.

It's definitely not for everyone, but like I said it's worth considering all options and maybe having some conversations with people before you've binned the idea off entirely.

 

[Matt.GC]

@Matt.GC That's a great post, and I agree with a fair amount of it, from my own experiences.

I won't lie, though, it's also making me worried about my own circumstance. I worry that I've put my eggs slightly too much into the educational basket. I've done GCSEs, A Levels and an undergraduate degree, which I got relatively favourable grades in all of for the most part, and I'm currently doing a postgraduate degree. I'm 6 years older than @The_bup, and am in the position where entering the world of full-time work now looms dauntingly close and I feel very unprepared for it.

In the spirit of what your post above says, I'm very much prepared for the prospect of my first job out of my MSc (I finish in September) being a minimum wage, "unskilled" (I don't agree with this term, but I can't think of a better one) Tesco-type job. I've applied to some of the bigger industry-specific graduate schemes, but I've already been rejected by 2 (I'm still waiting to hear back from the other one), and while I know graduate schemes are the most competitive of competitive jobs and not the be all and end all of skilled graduate employment, my utterly lacklustre performance in the 2 graduate scheme applications I've had back so far does not fill me with confidence that I have what it takes to succeed.

I know very well that beggars can't be choosers, and I'm in a position where I'm wholly average at best in the grand scheme of things and have practically no leverage to be anything other than a beggar, so I'm starting to think that it might end up having to be "unskilled" work for me to begin with. And if that's what's needed, I have no qualms about doing it. But this fills me with worry, as people have told me that it's "employability suicide" to do this sort of work for too long after uni, and that if I stay in this sort of work for too long, I'll never get out and be able to carve out the skilled career I want. To me, any job seems better than no job, but apparently employers frown on this sort of "unskilled" work after uni if you want to get into a skilled career. I just have this immense fear that this year is truly make or break if I ever want a "skilled" career in industry, and that if I screw it up, I'll never get this chance again.

At the same time, I also have this immense fear lurking in the back of my head that my attempted entry into the professional world will expose me as utterly incompetent and prove that everything I've ever achieved has largely been due to luck or me managing to chance my way through ("fake it 'till you make it", as they say). While I've achieved things on paper, I always have this voice in my head telling me that I didn't truly deserve them, that I just managed to get lucky, and that work will expose me as some kind of fraud.

This is why I absolutely hate thinking about the future... at this point in my life, perhaps more than any other, it just absolutely terrifies me.

It's "career suicide" to lounge around in a job waiting for the great big thing to land on your lap, yeah. But that is distinctly different from what we're talking about here. The societal stigma attached to not doing a job you're qualified in is an old fashioned argument from back in the day when there was less competition. So if you do one thing, please completely forget that nonsense.

Think of it from an employers point of view. What are they looking for?
1. "Is this person qualified to do the job/scheme"?
2. "Is this person worth investing in"?
3. "If we invest in this person, how much money will they make us/what function will they fulfill/how will they make my life easier"?

Basically the reverse of what I did. From a young age having 2 and 3 nailed from work, never had number 1 and was held back. But you can prove number 1 already so that's ticked off, your work experience will tick off 2 and 3 as they prove what you're like as an employee.

Imagine Mike.N is going up against you, equally qualified, same age, jolly nice guy. Q. "So what have you been up to the past few years?" A. "Well I've been reading, and doing hobbies. Been searching for work in this field but been waiting for the right opportunity as there hasn't been much out there."

@Matt N walks in afterwards, same question. A. "Well I've been searching for work in my field but been waiting for the right opportunity as there hasn't been much out there. So in the meantime I've carried on in the pub I was working in part-time when I was studying. I was quite good so started doing more and more hours. They then made me a supervisor, and I'm now the Assistant Manager. I enjoy it but I really want to do work in my qualified field."

Who do you think gets the job?

Aim high, so absolutely right to go for the biggies first like you have been doing. Keep lowering your expectations until you get something, and it'll open doors if you never take your eye off the prize.

I appreciate the social stigma that it sounds like you've been exposed to. But that's mostly garbage. I know, I've had 26 years of it, and seen dozens and dozens of grads go through it.

In fact, I'm at work right now and just finished a conversation with 4 people on a similar subject.

1 is 16, and came in with year 10 work experience in 2023. By Wednesday of that week it was like she'd be working for me for years! I told her she needing hunt me down after her GCSE's but not a moment before, and I'd take her on in a heartbeat. And I did, even though I didn't really have room, and she's been with me since last July. Excellent, always in on time, honest, hard working, intelligent, and soaks up the hours. I'll bend over backwards to get her a transfer to a location close to uni when she starts, and she'll come back to me in the holidays. She'll always have a job with me until she goes on her way and gets into what she actually wants to do.

Another is 23, transferred in from uni £30k in debt and has been going through the classic "I didn't think life would be like this" motion and has all these unrealistic expectations put on her by others. She's decided she wants to train as a teacher, and she's so important to me that I'm moving mountains to ensure she still has a job while she continues to study, and as a backup if things don't work out.

Another is 19 (took her on just before 18), did her A Levels and doesn't know what to do in the future. But she doesn't have to know right now, she's young, intelligent and has grown so much at work. If I had a position, I'd promote her tomorrow, and will one day if it's what she wants. If she doesn't, then she's safe here and we'll support her through.

The last is a member of my management team, and is 27. Walked in this morning to see a note to herself about applying for the level 3 apprenticeship in operations management (she has a good set of GCSE's but didn't do her A Levels). Looked at open university, but decided why bother when my employer will pay me full-time wages to do an apprenticeship for free? And it's done, she can get promoted and do a degree apprenticeship, all paid for, and then get another job if she likes.

All of them have good work experience, and either are or will be qualified. And they'll have my full support. Even if I looked at it from a selfish point of view, they all make my life as an employer easier. With what they've done for me, their experience will make a prospective employers life easier.

The importance here is that you have time Matt. You're still very young and have the support of your parents. You're highly intelligent and will be a very skilled individual. You have so much time for worrying about the other stuff and evolving your plan as time progresses.

Don't get what you were looking for? Look at something else. And then look for something else again. It's not binary by any stretch of the imagination, so please don't listen to naysayers. You don't have to have a structured plan, just finish up your masters, graft hard in the best job you can get, never stop searching for what you want. Setbacks will happen. But as someone as qualified as you will be, you don't need to be concerned about the future. Once that's all out the way, all you have to focus on is the bits you don't have.

Sorry for long posts, but it just annoys me when older folk, the system, and social media put out these fake narratives that puts unnecessary pressure on you guys. 1 step at a time, and you do have time.

 

[Matt N]

Thanks @Matt.GC; that post is definitely what I needed to read.

I guess it doesn’t help when I doom scroll through sites like Reddit, Quora and such, where people say things like “If you haven’t got a first from a top 5 uni, done at least 1 relevant summer internship and written at least 5 academic papers in your spare time, you’re absolutely f***ed”, “I really feel for all these poor uni students who’ve been sold a sham; STEM degrees aren’t worth the paper they’re written on these days when online boot camps exist” and “I’d hire a 16 year old school leaver before a 21 year old uni grad”. As someone who got their first from an ex-polytechnic university that isn’t overly renowned and is not even doing their Master’s in a “top” uni (my MSc uni is a Russell Group, but not one of the “top” ones), and does not really have any meaningful work experience, comments like these do not fill me with great confidence.

When concocting my CV, I’ve thus far decided to focus on some supercurricular (is that the right word?) things I’ve done as well as academics to try and get around my lack of meaningful work experience. For example, I’ve emphasised an industry outreach event I attended and spoke about my dissertation at last April, and as stupid as it might sound, I’ve also highlighted some of the various data analysis projects I’ve done around these parts. I figure if I want to get into data science/analytics, some supercurricular proof of me doing descriptive analytics, data visualisation, some other techniques like hypothesis testing and some general data analysis and derivation of insights are better than nothing! I also had some people from a consultancy firm in London contact me and request a Teams meeting about one of the projects I’d posted on here once, which did make me wonder if some of the stuff I’ve done on here could have the unintended side effect of being potential CV fodder for data analytics roles…

Off the back of our discussions, though, I’ve decided to stop wallowing in self-pity and actually be proactive and do something positive, so I’ve booked an appointment with the careers advisor for our academic school. I figure that if I outline my current predicament and worries to them, they might be able to give me some further guidance.

I also guess that I have relatively low stakes on my side as well. As my dad reminded me once, it’s not like I have a mortgage to pay or a family to feed. I still live at home with my parents, and I have relatively minimal outgoings, so it probably doesn’t matter that much financially if I don’t score the big thing straight out of uni and spend a bit of time in a lower-paying job building experience.

 

[Poisson]

I left uni after a foundation year, realising it wasn't for me.

Since then I've done 9 months in retail, 2 years in metalworking, 2 years in TV, 2 years in warehousing maintenance and now 3.5 years in my current job.

Finding what you want straight away is almost impossible. Also even knowing what you want is almost impossible. Retail was for money whilst working out what I wanted to do, metalworking wasn't for me, TV OBs were fun but the pay was poor so took a much better paying job in the warehouse looking after conveyors. That was decent but dead end, so took my current job on an apprenticeship, short term paycut but M-F, 9-5 semi flexi working is much better for me since I struggle to sleep and am injured so walking 30000 steps a shift isn't realistic anymore. You can't predict what will happen, sometimes a change of direction is what's required.

 

[Matt.GC]

You can't really plan for anything. We're in the middle of the fourth industrial revolution right now, and we still don't know how AI will change numerous industries.

When I chose what I did in 1999 I didn't know what would happen. I have advanced skills that are now no longer required. I know a lot about cuts of meat, I can do manual stock and order pin point accurately at a lighting paceI know exactly how EHO's operate, I can manage finance, I'm pretty knowledgeable in employment law, and I'd know what to do if there was a bomb threat. I can spot problems a mile away.

I'm now a box ticker and agony aunt, filling out forms and phoning people all day, presiding over machines and people walking around with handsets picking online orders in an increasingly autocratic environment. Little room for knowledge and creativity. But mainly the rubbish parts now remain. The unsociable hours, Christmas a write off, the 16 hour days when some sod tucks you up. The threats, the assaults, the abuse. All the crap remains, but the fun and creativity gone.

That's why I decided to have a plan B, C, and D. Everything changes. You can't predict the future, and at the moment the best laid plans could be useless in a matter of months. Life just isn't black and white. Cover as many bases as possible.

I would imagine these people on Reddit and Quoras etc got stung, made mistakes, and want to blame everyone but themselves for their own problems. It doesn't mean you have to listen to their sour grapes. Just like me writing this right now, they're just people on the internet, nothing more.