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The Retrosquad: General Discussion

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Danny said:
This isn't feasible for a number of reasons. Whilst Oblivion's capacity is nowhere near where it ought to be, a mirror maze would bottle neck the exit. From a marketing perspective, Thorpe had to bolt an IP onto their mirror maze for any degree of success. A mirror maze is nowhere near as marketable nor as satisfying to the guest experience unless a good chunk of cash is thrown at it.
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I think they meant as a separate attraction in X-Cite , and not part of oblivion's exit.
 
No matter how anyone tries to phrase it, no ride in Spinjams place probably means extra people in Oblivion/The Smiler’s queue. I know they’re not ideal, but they are helping people get an extra ride or two in. If The Smiler has an 80 minute queue, someone might be more inclined to want to wait in a 15 minute queue for Spinjam let’s say. They definitely have helped, so I’m not too bothered about them returning actually.
 
If the park want a quick capacity boost, separate the boat ride from the dungeons and run it for free. It's not getting anywhere near it's designed throughput currently. I would want to see flats on top of that but funfair ones are better than nothing, if they must then I would rather they played area music and attempted to theme them up, e.g. on Roller Disco put camo netting up, cover the funfair boards over with trees and vines, and put a more suitable lighting package in (darker and with more green). If some of the windows can be covered then that would also add to the atmosphere.
 
Danny said:
I'm sure they'd love to. Take staff absences or technical issues into consideration, however, and this is not necessarily possible.
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With nemesis closed next seasson they should be able to do so with no trouble at all.
Danny said:
This isn't feasible for a number of reasons. Whilst Oblivion's capacity is nowhere near where it ought to be, a mirror maze would bottle neck the exit. From a marketing perspective, Thorpe had to bolt an IP onto their mirror maze for any degree of success. A mirror maze is nowhere near as marketable nor as satisfying to the guest experience unless a good chunk of cash is thrown at it.
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Well that's not true at all. 1) the exit can be in a different place, both entrance and exit can be on the front of the building 2) it doesn't really need to be marketed. 3) there is no need for them to through a good chunk of cash into it at all. Some flashing beacons, sound effects and that's all you need. It's better than some cheap crap fairground rides.
Danny said:
This is the most realistic suggestion of all your points, but won't happen due to the associated costs with staffing it.
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How much as they spending on the Retro-squad that they wouldn't need to spend anymore? I bet it would be cheaper to make the dungeons free.
Danny said:
VR experiences cost money to produce, and the equipment costs money to rent. Even using stock films like they're doing at the moment, but taking away the upcharge element, is not a ROI. Again, you'd have to rely on throwing cash at marketing this which would be better spent elsewhere. The VR experience fad is not a worthwhile attraction to replace a flat ride.
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Again they won't be spending money on crappy fairground rides, so this is no problem.
Danny said:
I'm sure that's on the agenda, but they have an allocated capex to work to. The Retrosquad, whilst not ideal, is a temporary solution that aids in justifying the need for flat rides. Given Merlin's recent efforts with theming, it's highly probable any new flat rides will be themed appropriately. I'm sure there is more demand for temporary flat rides than a VR experience for certain.
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This comment was partially joking and to an extent I agree and understand.
Danscott22 said:
Yes it’s hard to justify it “being the only option”. But that’s where we are, so I’ll take it over nothing
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Why are we 'taking it over nothing' though? Not having the retro squad doesn't have to mean nothing does it?
 
Is there a possibility that the Retrosquad rides could be themed to the areas they are in, whilst still being temporary? (This would mean that they would no longer be called the Retrosquad but they would be the same attractions).
 
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It's fair to class it the "
JAperson said:
With nemesis closed next seasson they should be able to do so with no trouble at all.
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With Nemesis Sub Terra re-opening, staff will be reallocated. Let's also not forget Towers have recently not had it easy in terms of recruitment.
JAperson said:
Well that's not true at all. 1) the exit can be in a different place, both entrance and exit can be on the front of the building 2) it doesn't really need to be marketed. 3) there is no need for them to through a good chunk of cash into it at all. Some flashing beacons, sound effects and that's all you need. It's better than some cheap crap fairground rides.
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Doesn't really need to be marketed? Merlin's investments are pinned on their marketability. No compelling proposition; no attraction. Do you really think Thorpe would have just installed a mirror maze on a whim without the IP? Come off it. You may prefer walking around glaring at your own reflection, but that doesn't necessarily speak for everyone.
JAperson said:
How much as they spending on the Retro-squad that they wouldn't need to spend anymore? I bet it would be cheaper to make the dungeons free.
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Years ago, we'd have scoffed at the thought of ANY money being spent on flat rides. It's not an ideal situation, but having four flat rides rented for a temporary basis until a proper themed flat ride capex is better than no flat rides at all. Plus, the combined throughput of the four flat rides will exceed that of the Dungeons, so all you'd be doing here is reducing capacity across four attractions against one attraction with minimal re-rideability. Not that it would ever happen, but if the Dungeons were made free, I'd be a betting man on the Retrosquad's total popularity being much higher.

JAperson said:
Again they won't be spending money on crappy fairground rides, so this is no problem.
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VR would not be a sufficient draw as a standalone investment. It worked to begin with on Galactica. This was, in part due to it being a unique experience to the many who don't travel to theme parks abroad. However, it soon became evident it was an unpopular hindrance and where is it now? Gone.

Pop on a serious return on investment cap and I assure you it will all make sense.
 
Danny said:
With Nemesis Sub Terra re-opening, staff will be reallocated. Let's also not forget Towers have recently not had it easy in terms of recruitment.
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Have you got inside information your not telling us about? It's far from known that sub-terra is reopening. If it is then that will add capacity itself, making the retro-squad less needed.
Danny said:
Doesn't really need to be marketed? Merlin's investments are pinned on their marketability. No compelling proposition; no attraction. Do you really think Thorpe would have just installed a mirror maze on a whim without the IP? Come off it. You may prefer walking around glaring at your own reflection, but that doesn't necessarily speak for everyone.
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Are the retro-squad rides highly marketed? No I don't think so. I can't see my own reflection thank you very much so no I don't speak for everyone. It was an example, there are plenty of cheap options that might be more marketable.
Danny said:
Years ago, we'd have scoffed at the thought of ANY money being spent on flat rides. It's not an ideal situation, but having four flat rides rented for a temporary basis until a proper themed flat ride capex is better than no flat rides at all. Plus, the combined throughput of the four flat rides will exceed that of the Dungeons, so all you'd be doing here is reducing capacity across four attractions against one attraction with minimal re-rideability. Not that it would ever happen, but if the Dungeons were made free, I'd be a betting man on the Retrosquad's total popularity being much higher.
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Well I'd give you good odd's on that, because I bet the opposite. If the dungeons were free and made easy to access (making the time ticketing system really simple and easy) and the group sizes were increased then the dungeons throughput could be harnessed to it's full extreme's (yes I admit it's relatively low) but that will take the strain off some of the other attractions.
Danny said:
VR would not be a sufficient draw as a standalone investment. It worked to begin with on Galactica. This was, in part due to it being a unique experience to the many who don't travel to theme parks abroad. However, it soon became evident it was an unpopular hindrance and where is it now? Gone.
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That's VR on a coaster which is not really comparable to a standalone VR experience is it. A standalone VR experience, with as many 'arena's' as towers can possibly fit in will have an okay capacity and will help. It's also very marketable, especially if they do something a little unique (but not overly complex).
Danny said:
Pop on a serious return on investment cap and I assure you it will all make sense.
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This reads very much like you are calling me stupid, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you mean that at worst case scenario you mean what I am suggesting would loose Merlin a lot of money. Which in a way you'd be correct but in another you'd be completely wrong. The cost of hiring out these flat rides must be stupid high, plus the electricity cost. Having what I've suggested would cost less on both and increase capacity to a level not far off what the retro-squad do without reducing Alton Towers to a funfair in the woods.
 
JAperson said:
Have you got inside information your not telling us about? It's far from known that sub-terra is reopening. If it is then that will add capacity itself, making the retro-squad less needed.
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Unless you've been hiding under a rock all this time, there has been a lot of evidence hinting towards it returning. This is the wrong thread to share that evidence but it has been well discussed in the dedicated thread.

If it does return that will not make the Retrosquad redundant. They will all work together to provide increased ride capacity.
 
With Nemesis being closed next season, they are losing the ride with the best capacity on park. They need all of the additional capacity they can get, however small, so that includes Sub-Terra and the Retrosquad flats.
 
JAperson said:
Have you got inside information your not telling us about? It's far from known that sub-terra is reopening. If it is then that will add capacity itself, making the retro-squad less needed.
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Sub Terra is hardly a capacity beast that can replace an entire portfolio of four flat rides. On a personal level, I'd also rather have four different flat ride experiences than one barely re-rideable that consumes staff roles.
JAperson said:
Are the retro-squad rides highly marketed? No I don't think so. I can't see my own reflection thank you very much so no I don't speak for everyone. It was an example, there are plenty of cheap options that might be more marketable.
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Did I say highly marketed? No, because they're temporary investments. Were they marketed at all? Yes. Not bombastically, but enough to point out there were new rides in each of the years they appeared, and also with an attempt at a back story. In terms of the mirror maze, I'd be more than happy for you to point out effective marketing of one (without an IP) that led to a significant increase in guest satisfaction, however.

JAperson said:
Well I'd give you good odd's on that, because I bet the opposite. If the dungeons were free and made easy to access (making the time ticketing system really simple and easy) and the group sizes were increased then the dungeons throughput could be harnessed to it's full extreme's (yes I admit it's relatively low) but that will take the strain off some of the other attractions.
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One of the key issues identified by upper management in recent years, as demonstrated by Trip Advisor, is the frustrations surrounding the number of attractions people experience on a given day. One trip in the Dungeons, or multiple rides on the Retrosquad portfolio? This is one of the driving factors behind the Retrosquad being installed. Yes, they're rented fun fair rides and they're not pretty, but it gives four extra rides to experience for no additional cost on the admission ticket.

This is the point that perhaps you are glossing over too much here in the grand scheme of things relating to their installation.
JAperson said:
That's VR on a coaster which is not really comparable to a standalone VR experience is it. A standalone VR experience, with as many 'arena's' as towers can possibly fit in will have an okay capacity and will help. It's also very marketable, especially if they do something a little unique (but not overly complex).
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Define "very marketable". I had a chance to work on a marketing brief for a VR attraction before I left the industry. Market research was initially done and the feedback was generally quite underwhelming prior to any attraction being installed. The attraction was installed regardless with the intention of it being rolled out worldwide. Needless to say, it hasn't been as a result of the poor performance, both with and without an upcharge.

JAperson said:
This reads very much like you are calling me stupid, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you mean that at worst case scenario you mean what I am suggesting would loose Merlin a lot of money. Which in a way you'd be correct but in another you'd be completely wrong. The cost of hiring out these flat rides must be stupid high, plus the electricity cost. Having what I've suggested would cost less on both and increase capacity to a level not far off what the retro-squad do without reducing Alton Towers to a funfair in the woods.
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I'm suggesting you think about the real-world considerations and thought processes that go into decisions like this. Of course the costings will be factored in, but as we don't know the specific costs (I have rough costings for the RollerDisko only based on a reliable source), it can't be firmly said the prices are sky high.

I don't buy the notion of it being a fun fair in the woods. They've dialled down the over-the-top fairground nature compared to last year by ditching the ridiculous air horns and bellowing audio. It's a theme park with some of the best attractions in the country and one of the best inverts in the world, complete with one of the best stately ruins and gardens to boot. It has been subjected to dire times where budgets have had to be pulled together by coins down the back of a sofa due to neglect.

Despite all the chaos over recent years, the Retrosquad is a display that management FINALLY understand the frustrations of their main audience: guests who visit as a once or twice a year treat and therefore want to get on as many rides as possible. They've temporarily addressed this concern whilst the main capex has already been allocated.


I'm pretty confident the guests who only get to visit once or twice a year, looking to get the best value for money, would rather four temporary fairground rides (which they'd normally have to pay individually for at a fair), than a bland mirror maze or a VR experience they can have at home.
 
JAperson said:
Why are we 'taking it over nothing' though? Not having the retro squad doesn't have to mean nothing does it?
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You’re aware of the history of Alton Towers removing flat rides and not permanently replacing them aren’t you? This is why I’ll take it over empty spaces, but it is quite clear permanent replacements are not coming in any time soon with all the other investment elsewhere. I’ll repeat, I don’t think this is good obviously, but when we’re in the situation we are in (which is out of our control obviously as we’d all do things different in the flat ride department) then I will take these rides over empty spaces.
 
Towers could give me £10k and I would *personally* design AND install a MoJ themed Mirror Maze in the former XCite building. Would it be little more than a diversion out of the elements - yes. Would it still be fun ? Also yes
 
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