Thorpe Park: General Discussion

[Vicky]

Just had a quick look over the plans - there a very few things that suggest to me it would be themed around The Hunger Games. The entrance sign looks reminiscent of that to the Victor's Village and the entrance feature could possibly be the fountain in the square of the Village and that is really grasping at straws.

Thorpe may have a relationship with Lionsgate but I can't see Thorpe Park producing something of a quality that would impress Suzanne Collins, who has been heavily involved through the film production so far.

 

[TheMan]

Thorpe may have a relationship with Lionsgate but I can't see Thorpe Park producing something of a quality that would impress Suzanne Collins, who has been heavily involved through the film production so far.

Let's be fair, if Merlin are involved and will work strongly with a proper IP, CBeebies is a good example of this.

I do think they're capable if they put their minds and proper resources to it.

 

[Stevie]

I do think they're capable if they put their minds and proper resources to it.

They've yet to prove themselves.

 

[jon81uk]

They've yet to prove themselves.

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There are plenty of examples of Merlin Magic Making doing as good as Tussaud's Studios did.

 

[TheMan]

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There are plenty of examples of Merlin Magic Making doing as good as Tussaud's Studios did.

Agreed. The attractions you mention I do think are decent, not incredible, but as naff as the idea is here in general I'd say that Battle Galleons isn't too bad either.

But then, you have The Swarm and it's ludicrous open station and run down theme, The Smiler with it's rushed concrete hell pit, Storm Dirge, the state of the maintenance etc, fast track, budget problems with the parks.

That's what's frustrating, you know they have the brains/creativity to do it in the organisation! IF they just couldn't do it, like say, the smaller parks, then you accept it and applaud what they do - but Merlin kind of use Anti-Customer-Experience tactics a lot of the time and it's getting worse.

So yes, they CAN do it, they just often DON'T

 

[jon81uk]

[QUOTE="TheMan, post: 119793, member: 551"

But then, you have The Swarm and it's ludicrous open station and run down theme, The Smiler with it's rushed concrete hell pit, Storm Dirge, the state of the maintenance etc, fast track, budget problems with the parks.

[/QUOTE]

I would say the theming job on The Swarm isn't badly done, with the truck for the MidWay games, the Police van as control room etc, yes the roofless station is odd, but it means you get that view of the coaster as it passes above you, overall I think it is almost as good as Nemesis (which is significantly helped by building down into a pit making the rockwork part of the theme).

 

[TheMan]

I would say the theming job on The Swarm isn't badly done, with the truck for the MidWay games, the Police van as control room etc, yes the roofless station is odd, but it means you get that view of the coaster as it passes above you, overall I think it is almost as good as Nemesis (which is significantly helped by building down into a pit making the rockwork part of the theme).

I am a fan of The Swarm, I think the island is quite good, I appreciate the reason behind the station but... Britain.... weather. Also the destructive theme again.

The actual them elements to nemesis themselves, are nothing remarkable, giant fibreglass alien over a station - the end. Nemmy is the theatre of the location, and blasting that rock and excavations to create THAT landscape was absolute genius, I remember the park before it was there. When it arrived it was a real WTFH IS THAT moment.

The Swarm, not so much.

Mind you, they couldn't dig down there if they wanted to, unless they fancied a Mack Super Splash

 

[Coaster]

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There are plenty of examples of Merlin Magic Making doing as good as Tussaud's Studios did.

If you are talking about the new London Dungeon, then I disagree. It's very poorly themed in my opinion. Some nice small touches but the ceilings are all just black and with the workings showing - nowhere near as good as the old dungeon and a huge disappointment for a "themed" attraction.

 

[TheMan]

I am putting my money on a Triotech dark ride. They just mentioned in an interview about working with IP based things on multiple continents, and they make reference also to the UK loosely.

Now, THORPE haven't got the standard lazer gun attraction, and they don't have a dark ride either, this technology is more affordable than others, would suit the demographic perfectly, they're used to working with IP material, have shown successful implementation at Wonderland, would fit the smaller size (compared to HP etc), and AFAIK there isn't actually one in Europe yet of this nature is there?

Here's an interview with the head guy, reading this it just made me think, I bet it's with them:
http://www.attractionsmanagement.co...ctions Management&codeid=29320&linktype=story

 

[_nemesis_]

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There are plenty of examples of Merlin Magic Making doing as good as Tussaud's Studios did.

Can I just throw in Wild Asia, Atlantis (Legoland), Scorpion Express, Legoland Hotel and the Azteca Hotel as well.

I think we don't really give Merlin Studios enough credit, sure, a lot of their themes are dark, but if that suits the needs of today's society then what's the problem. Thrill rides will tend to have darker themes in this country, its just how the target market like it.

Looks at Tussaud's thrill additions: Nemesis, Ripsaw, Oblivion, Vampire and Rameses Revenge. All of these have/had dark themes, yes, Rameses' wasn't too strong, but it was still based on ancient pharaoh trying to drown you. Its unfair to say Tussaud's did a better job of theming attractions, or that they had more variety when it came to style. It is also worth pointing out that a few of the people working in MMM were there in the days of Tussauds Studios.

 

[Burbs]

Can I just throw in Wild Asia, Atlantis (Legoland), Scorpion Express, Legoland Hotel and the Azteca Hotel as well.

I think we don't really give Merlin Studios enough credit, sure, a lot of their themes are dark, but if that suits the needs of today's society then what's the problem. Thrill rides will tend to have darker themes in this country, its just how the target market like it.

Looks at Tussaud's thrill additions: Nemesis, Ripsaw, Oblivion, Vampire and Rameses Revenge. All of these have/had dark themes, yes, Rameses' wasn't too strong, but it was still based on ancient pharaoh trying to drown you. Its unfair to say Tussaud's did a better job of theming attractions, or that they had more variety when it came to style. It is also worth pointing out that a few of the people working in MMM were there in the days of Tussauds Studios.

I think there's a difference between a theme being "dark" and a theme being "run down" though. Nemesis, Oblivion, not so much Ripsaw, Vampire and Rameses, the ones you mentioned, are not run down at all. However, Saw, concept for The Smiler, Swarm and this new 2016 attraction as far as we're concerned are in fact "run down" as well as "dark".

 

[TheMan]

Can I just throw in ...Scorpion Express... as well.

No, you most certainly can't.

I think we don't really give Merlin Studios enough credit, sure, a lot of their themes are dark, but if that suits the needs of today's society then what's the problem. Thrill rides will tend to have darker themes in this country, its just how the target market like it.

How do you know? Colossus is still well loved, it's not got a "dark" theme. The Smiler for goodness sake, even though it's got a dark theme, it's not really realised it's one of the exceptions I'd say - without the huge concrete rubbish and, well, run down concrete shed it could have fantastic.

Looks at Tussaud's thrill additions: Nemesis, Ripsaw, Oblivion, Vampire and Rameses Revenge. All of these have/had dark themes, yes, Rameses' wasn't too strong, but it was still based on ancient pharaoh trying to drown you. Its unfair to say Tussaud's did a better job of theming attractions,

I started on your side of this debate, that last quote has put me on the other one!

 

[Rob]

I think we don't really give Merlin Studios enough credit, sure, a lot of their themes are dark, but if that suits the needs of today's society then what's the problem. Thrill rides will tend to have darker themes in this country, its just how the target market like it.

It's not that dark themes suits the needs of today's society. It's that run down/dirty themes are dark, and they do not require as much upkeep as a 'clean' theme. Therefore money is saved in the long run.

 

[_nemesis_]

^ Sorry, but that post really sums up what's wrong with the UK's enthusiast community. Instead of considering that there maybe another reason behind the dark themes, you instantly assume the worst, that Merlin do it so that its cheaper to maintain.

Look at Thorpe, its the best example. Saw has the most run-down theme in the country, yet its the park's most popular ride. Its not as though they don't have to keep it in good condition, Lionsgate needs to be pleased with the condition of the attraction.

Whilst I agree dark themes don't make for the best escapism feel, it is still unfair to say our industry is in a poor period. This new attraction isn't really my sort of thing either (and to be fair neither is Saw), but you never know, I could be brilliant!

 

[Dave]

Merlin do pick run down themes as they are easy to maintain. Also because it's an easy way of saying "this is dark"

Dark themes are fine, thrill rides tend to have them, but as said Merlin seem to go for run down. Oblivion is dark but had a modern fresh appeal in its opening seasons. They almost got it right with Smiler but they just had too little theming.

 

[Rob]

^ Sorry, but that post really sums up what's wrong with the UK's enthusiast community. Instead of considering that there maybe another reason behind the dark themes, you instantly assume the worst, that Merlin do it so that its cheaper to maintain.

Look at Thorpe, its the best example. Saw has the most run-down theme in the country, yet its the park's most popular ride. Its not as though they don't have to keep it in good condition, Lionsgate needs to be pleased with the condition of the attraction.

Whilst I agree dark themes don't make for the best escapism feel, it is still unfair to say our industry is in a poor period. This new attraction isn't really my sort of thing either (and to be fair neither is Saw), but you never know, I could be brilliant!

I'm sorry to sound harsh but you are naive. We know Merlin like to save money left, right and centre. A 'dark and run down' theme lends to this, as it gets dirty of the years is does not need cleaning as much as it enhances the run down effect. It is clearly deliberate.

Saw is popular yes. But it is not because it is run down. It is successful because of the huge IP. I remember when I was at HHN the maze with the longest queue was the Saw themed maze.Merlin actually did a good job on Saw, there's some good theming and the indoor section is brilliant.

Our industry in the UK is in a poor period. Just look at the non-Merlin parks. None of them have the money to anything remotely exciting from a thrill point of view. And Merlin's approach to new attractions is getting boring and depressing; the whole 'killer image' and 'compelling proposition' thing is utter nonsense. Yes they build some good hardware but is it too much to ask for something more? I'm grateful that we have some wonderful European parks to visit.

 

[TheMan]

It's so one dimensional now. As @Dave said The Smiler had a go, but the turgid concrete slabs everywhere ruins it, as does the not quite minimalist interior station that was ALMOST brilliant but ended up bland and brutalist.

At night, it's better, but there's no escaping (almost literally) that horrendous concrete mess that already looks grimy and horrid. It didn't look great to start, but looking especially at the sides, it's just vile.

Oblivion has aged better, because of the way it moves around X-Sector in phases, the brutalism of if is broken up and it's actually powerful and graceful with it. The Smiler relies on those screens, imagine a moment, the marm with NO screens and the station building/queue without them - not a pleasant proposition.

Now imagine Oblivion without it's screens...

Easy to see which relies on distraction from the themes faults, and which one is simply further ENHANCED by a bit of tech.

 

[CGM]

Our industry in the UK is in a poor period. Just look at the non-Merlin parks. None of them have the money to anything remotely exciting from a thrill point of view. And Merlin's approach to new attractions is getting boring and depressing; the whole 'killer image' and 'compelling proposition' thing is utter nonsense. Yes they build some good hardware but is it too much to ask for something more? I'm grateful that we have some wonderful European parks to visit.

Exactly, if the modern day park goer wants dark, gritty, industrial themes, why aren't the top non-Merlin parks in continental Europe all rolling out similarly themed rides? I accept that there are some differences between the UK and say, the German consumer but I find it hard to believe that we're so much more brooding and complicated over here.

It's true that you get the odd Sky Screamer or Reset at Miribilandia but even these rides are carried out with a fair bit of panache compared to the much more formulaic Merlin efforts.

When Tussaud's first delved into darker themes with Nemesis and Oblivion, it was hugely innovative. Few rides had ever been given such stark themes and their unique brand identities really made them stand out from the competition. For the time in which they were built, the theming efforts involved were fantastic. There had never been anything quite like it in the UK and they set new standards for landscaping, queue interaction and use of key theming elements such as a large central focal point (The Nemesis monster, Oblivion's drop area) and the use of smaller peripheral objects such as military vehicles to set the scene.

Unfortunately, Merlin have since latched onto this successful formula and reduced it down to its most basic, easily repeatable, most cost effective form. The result is that these dark themes are no longer shocking or distinctive, they're boring, predictable and a poor excuse to deliberately let theming decay. It's an approach that requires little creative effort and it shows in the end result.

As much as I hate to say it, Oblivion's theming is really starting to look a bit tired and dated these days. However, despite this fact, it still manages to be a better themed ride than The Smiler. Some may disagree with this but the fact there's even a debate shows that Merlin aren't putting in anything like the amount of effort in that Tussaud's were in the 90s. The industry should have moved above and beyond what was possible in 1998. Look at how far Europa has come in the same time, there's simply no comparison between Wodan's theming and Euromir's.

What made Nemesis and Oblivion work so effectively is that they were very much the exception to the rule. So while most of the park was bright and cheery, if you ventured far enough you could find these more sinister areas. This gave Alton a great sense of adventure but it was important that you would always be able to return to a safe haven so that the tone remained adventurous and not depressing.

These days, I feel that Merlin have crossed the line into making their parks overly dark with Thorpe being by far the worst example. You go to a theme park to have fun. Why should you be presented with dark, gritty, decaying destruction wherever you turn?

 

[_nemesis_]

Merlin don't theme everything in a dark, run down way. Look at their family additions. Nothing not thrill related has had a dark theme. Clearly, dark themes suit British thrill rides. Obviously why Thorpe is just filled with depression.

My point is, that it's unfair to say Tussaud's did a better job, seeing as all their thrill additions were dark/run down in some way.

I know you go to a theme park for fun/escapism, but if the average thrill seeker gets excitement from close calls with death etc, then the ride will mimic those needs.

I expect it is cheaper to maintain, but that won't be the sole reason behind the theming choice.

 

[Rob]

Brilliant post CGM!

Merlin don't theme everything in a dark, run down way. Look at their family additions. Nothing not thrill related has had a dark theme. Clearly, dark themes suit British thrill rides. Obviously why Thorpe is just filled with depression.

My point is, that it's unfair to say Tussaud's did a better job, seeing as all their thrill additions were dark/run down in some way.

I know you go to a theme park for fun/escapism, but if the average thrill seeker gets excitement from close calls with death etc, then the ride will mimic those needs.

I expect it is cheaper to maintain, but that won't be the sole reason behind the theming choice.

Of course they don't give family/kids investments a dark theme. That's just common sense, you can't go having a dark and sinister kids area that the kids are going to be too scared to enjoy. Thankfully with CBeebies Land for example, Merlin were forced heavily by the BBC to ensure things met high standards.

Dark themes do naturally suit thrill rides, that's pretty obvious. However doing it time and time again demonstrates a lack of creativity. But it is not that the themes are dark that is the major problem, it is the manner in which these dark themes are done. Dark does not have to mean run down, it does not have to mean a big warehouse, it does not have to mean aged. But let's look at Merlin's UK examples:

- Mutiny Bay: a darker theme than Merrie England, was actually done well in the early Merlin days but upkeep has been almost non-existant, but they get away with it somewhat due to the theme
- Saw: dark theme done well as matches films, one of their first coasters, no complaints
- Thirteen: dark theme for a family thrill, ride itself not too bad. But Dark Forest; basically a run down derelict version of Ug Land that has aged terribly
- Wild Asia: not a dark theme as such but still mostry grey colours that are easier to maintain, do no look so bad when ages and weathered
- Nemesis: Sub-Terra: basically a big metal warehouse, easy to maintain
- The Swarm: some great theming pieces but all damaged/derelict due to nature of theme. Means they are able to age poorly with little impact on the overall theme
- The Smiler: should have been a dark theme with a more 'clinical' look yet we ended up with tonnes of filthy concrete that they have never even attempted to clean properly since construction
- Thorpe 2016: run down derelict warehouse, same old story

That's pretty much all of Merlin's major investments in their UK Resort Theme Parks (with the exception of CBeebies Land). However you say that these dark run down themes must suit the average British theme park goer. Well why is it a very similar case for Merlin parks in Europe?

- Raptor, Gardaland: a dark theme done very well. Can't comment too much on how it as aged and whether the theming lends itself to natural aging
- Krake, Heide Park: dark theme, buildings appear somewhat derelict.
- Flug der Dämonen, Heide Park: dark theme, dark building etc
- Gardaland 2015 Dive Coaster: appears to be yet another dark theme although we do not know the exact stlyle they are going for

So it is not just a UK thing. It is a Merlin thing. Not all dark themes actually have to look dark, sinister, aged or run down. Wodan arguably has a dark theme but looks impecible. Then not all thrill rides even have to have dark themes. Rita and Air at Towers were brighter themes when they opened. Blue Fire and Silver Star at EP. Khan and Shambhala at PA. Helix at Liseberg. Griffon, Alpengeist and Apollo's Chariot at BGW. They are just some examples I know first hand are out and out thrill yet their themes are not dark, are very presentable and look fantastic!

Merlin have almost turned the whole of Towers and Thorpe into these dark theme parks. You lose a sense of adventure. Dark themes everywhere does not equal magic. It's almost certainly one of the reasons as to why I now much prefer parks such as Disney and EP over Towers. You will see this in time.