Thorpe Park: General Discussion

[TheMan]

Re: Thorpe Park

Nice to know that topdogdays.com are up to date with their information.

Well, that took me a little time to understand why you posted that ha-ha!

As for the other discussions, the issue isn't really flats now - it's family rides. And I can't agree with The Right Honourable WillG in that when I visited last year it was naff again. I even enjoy Inferno, so it isn't like I'm a Thorpe basher, far from it, the park itself I very much like as do I The Swarm.

It just feels worse though now they pretty much removed anything to do with families - it can lead to an intimidating atmosphere at times... whilst that doesn't bother me all that much, it still doesn't make it right, or enjoyable for that matter, and it most certainly isn't family friendly in any way shape or form anymore.

Dave I don't agree with this though

... they should have made Chessington a zoo experience park... and made Thorpe into a family theme-park with a lean towards the thrill market but still balancing all demographics.

Chessington is fine as it is, on the right path, that needs an upper thrill or two - at the point where Chessie and Thorpe cross over. Vampy (<3) is a perfect example of a family thrill ride, that just creeps into the terrifies tiny ones and pushes them out of their experience comfort zone, but gives adults a great deal of fun too. Thorpe could go a little less thrill than that with a couple, but around that marker, so you build up through Chessie, and end up with a higher thrill ride than the tamest family ride at Thorpe which then builds up.

What you do then, is you essentially divide one big park into two (Chessie/Thorpe), but with crossovers so everyone can enjoy their day. The irony of this of course, is Chessie need serious cash to make this happen, and deserve it, where as TP actually have the hard work done, and now just need three or four smaller family thrill attractions and a couple of fillers again for families - job done!

The park could be beautifully balanced. Back that up without feeling like you are entering a war zone on entry, decent service when you are in there (Last year on Swarm, the queue bloke, grrrrr!!! Ignorant idiot) - wasted over half hour of our day just by not being bothered to keep people informed at the front. Prime example of it.

There are great staff of course, don't get me wrong, but they have to put up with a lot through the day there.

That's the frustrating thing here, with some common sense and a level head, it could be a stunningly brilliant park - but no, it won't happen will it.

 

[WillG]

Re: Thorpe Park

Perhaps I'm biased because I'm a massive fan of the Swarm (best new coaster we've seen in Britain since '94, according to... me, though the backwards seats might undo that...)

Que?! I know you've said in your opinion, but you can't be serious? Speed: No Limits, Megafobia, OBLIVION! All post '94 and all generally regarded higher than Swarm as far as I know. This isn't a post berating you or saying your wrong by the way, just me disagreeing

Not at all, it'd make for very dull discussion if we all had the same opinions

I'm still genuinely surprised by that though, for a few reasons - firstly, before this topic I'd only ever heard good things about Swarm, and never considered it a failure (except maybe the half-finished theming), and if anything, it annoys me a little if that's the case, especially since it's lamentable neighbour Steath seemed to be lauded from all quarters. That's also the first time in a while I've heard anyone say a good thing about Speed - it was a bit different and interesting when it opened, but now it's painful and forgettable as far as I'm concerned!

I'm still going to say that Thorpe's going forwards rather than backwards though; in 2012, the park was a lot more pleasant to visit than it was around 2006-8, rides a LOT more reliable, queues less... horrific and atmosphere less intimidating, but maybe I was just lucky with the days I visited on. I also think it makes sense to have the separate thrill park and family park just around the M25 from each other, since there's not enough space to stick both together as Alton has in the past - but I'll agree there's a hell of a lot of room for improvement before the transition between the two is as seamless as we (and probably they) would like...

 

[Dave]

Re: Thorpe Park

The Swarm is a good coaster, I really like it and there is some great theming. I don't think it was a failure of design per-say I genuinely think the ride failed because of poor marketing and the park did bad because it has put all its eggs in a very finicky basket with a low reserve income (teenage/ young-adults).

To be fair I don't think the Olympics helped them but seen as they have known for 8 years previous that the Olympics where in 2012 its a bit silly to cry about its effects when you could have easily avoided it. Chessington does financially very well because it appeals to families with more disposable income (and parents can't say no to their kids). Towers has huge numbers because it covers all the bases.

 

[Harv]

Re: Thorpe Park

Thorpe Park have essentially isolated themselves to a point where they will now be unable to cater for families for the next 20 years.

People do not visit theme parks alone. The community here are a group of similar minded enthusiasts and so are likely to visit together on meets etc. as a group of older people. But most adults do not visit theme parks without children.

Thorpe could've put itself as a sister to Alton but they've essentially dreamt up this target market;

You must live in the South. (Cannot be helped, but still knocks out 50% of the population).
You must be a teenager or adult without children.
You must have disposable income.
You must enjoy intense, scary rides.

It seems to me that they could have had all families in the country willing to visit with the close proximity to Chessington and Legoland, yet have instead made the park only useful to young people with no families, who have spare money and a desire to ride thrill rides only.

Silly Thorpe, in my opinion.

 

[WillG]

Re: Thorpe Park

^
That's as may be, but still not often you see a quiet Thorpe Park; I'm not convinced visitor numbers can be that much of a problem. Maybe Swarm didn't increase them as much as had been expected, or as much as bloody Stealth did, but from a guest perspective, that's... not such a bad thing - I wouldn't like to see the queues the way they got for 2007 Fright Nights any more often!

However, I AM going to agree that it's targeting the park so heavily at that specific audience, and basically nobody else, which is responsible for the atmosphere at the park, particularly after dark or during the Summer holidays. When I, and probably a lot of others, do tend to avoid it like the plague.

 

[thefatone]

Re: Thorpe Park

I believe offpeak has become busier, but peak days have dropped bigstyle in amount of guests. Actual year-on-year attendance has been declining since 07 or so, though I've heard 09 was a blip.

 

[Dave]

Re: Thorpe Park

As far as income goes though Thorpe is (apparently according to "good" rumour) second lowest of all the Merlin non-Lego parks (Garda is worst). You can have high numbers but do badly if the people that come don't spend a lot whilst in park. Thorpe may get numbers but those teenagers are not spending like families do when they get in the park.

Trust me the "take per head" is the key which is why Chessington can have fewer guests walk through the door but take more money.

 

[WillG]

Re: Thorpe Park

^
This is true - I'd guess the bulk of Thorpe's guests on busy days are bored teenagers local annual pass holders with nothing better to do, and not much money to spend inside the park; therefore Merlin's not actually doing all that well out of them.
Equally, maybe it's BECAUSE 2007 was so busy and how dismal the park was when it was that full that people have learned from bitter experience to avoid peak days, as they're a bit dreadful - thus leading to a decline in attendance figures. It's plausible...

 

[electricBlll]

Re: Thorpe Park

If Thorpe Park loses popularity, would that be a big loss to Merlin on the whole? Especially since Chessington seems to be gaining popularity in recent years.

The original plan was to exploit Thorpe Park's loose planning restrictions by building all the thrill rides there, and give up with large roller coasters at Chessington because the restrictions had become so bad. Chessington had previously had a "universal" market and Thorpe Park was in competition. Once Tussaudes acquired Thorpe Park, they opted to split the roles, allowing one to specialise in thrills and the other to specialise in families; this meaning they could cater for the "universal" market together and get around the restrictions.

Now Merlin have taken Thorpe Park so far in one direction, making it quite famous in the process, while Chessington has not received significant investment for a number of years. I'm not sure if the co-operation between the two parks still exists, as they can't really be thought of as sister parks anymore, and of course they have separate managements. However they are still owned by the same company and are geographically similar, so would a loss in one asset really be a problem if there was a profit in another?

It may just be a case of moving investment to Chessington until the market for Thorpe Park comes back. Which would be fantastic.

 

[Dave]

Re: Thorpe Park

I personally think they could have made both work well. Chessington struggles to function as a progressing traditional theme park due to its local nimby's restricting development. What it could have been turned into is more of a safari/ zoo experience expanding the animal offering and adding attractions like Zufari. Then make Thorpe a more traditional family theme park.

That way both pull a range of the market, without competing with each other.

 

[electricBlll]

Re: Thorpe Park

What it could have been turned into is more of a safari/ zoo experience expanding the animal offering and adding attractions like Zufari.

Yes, and that's exactly what they have been trying for several years. Tussaudes was sending Chessington in the direction of a children's park as they thought there was no way it could compete anymore. Thankfully that plan was abandoned when Merlin took over. The new management (I assume the management changed) realised that Chessington's advantage was the zoo, hence the "wild adventure" rebrand in 2010. It's interesting that 20+ years ago, Chessington were desperately trying to abandon their zoo image and become a full theme park.

Zufari has been planned for at least five years, but I guess Merlin have been waiting for the right moment to give Chessington the budget. It will be the first major step in creating that integrated zoo/theme park experience, unless you count the snakes and lorikeets in Wild Asia. I hope it works for Chessington and that the idea proves popular with the public.

On the subject of Thorpe Park, I feel sorry for those who got to know it during the 80s/early 90s, because that nostalgic family park image has been so profoundly obliterated. It's almost like they want it to be the most grim, depressing, pubescent park on Earth. However, since it is just an island in the middle of a disused quarry, it's inevitable that it was going to end up like this, with rides spilling over each other and a serious lack of breathing space. There just isn't the room anymore.

I don't see the problem with their target market. Their advertising is firmly aimed at young adults/older teenagers, but as far as I know younger teenagers and their families still love it. Almost everybody in my area and age range know about it and had been there more than once. But whether popularity guarantees large profits is another matter...

 

[GAGrathea]

Thorpe Park

As eBill says, there is a lot of love for Thorpe among my demographic - often conversation about Towers leads to "but what about Thorpe Park?!"

Most people I know are more than aware of the Swarm; I think for the teenage demographic it isn't an awareness issue, but an issue of those who knew about the ride not going... Maybe Thorpe have alienated the parents who would otherwise have been lift givers from wanting to go there for a day out?

 

[nickhutson]

Re: Thorpe Park

Yes - I think Thorpe is doing fine with its target market.

Once again I do wish they offered a (free for an annual pass holder) shuttle bus service between Chessington and Thorpe Park!

 

[TheMan]

Re: Thorpe Park

Given their locations, both parks should be absolutely rinsing it.

Thorpe or Merlin made a ridiculous mistake, and I also think making Chessington into a more zoo focused attraction is completely daft.

They cost far more money to run, and it leaves a gaping hole in the market.

Chessington should be concentrating on family thrill, being creative with their ride offerings - bringing in new family/moderate thrill attractions, and taking care of the zoo as they do.

It makes me shudder to think of them having less rides, and more animals - and that is from an animal lover.

They don't advertise properly out far enough, people will travel long distances for a day out like that. Also families I know, are not remotely impressed with the attached hotel, saying it doesn't feel welcoming and feels far more like a business mans establishment. (These folks run their own successful companies, and travel a lot, they would know).

For me, Thorpe and Chessie are completely different already - you can add a decent whack of family attractions, to Thorpe, and a couple more thrilling rides to Chessington - and you essentially have two parks, that cater to all demographics, but still remain specialised in a particular brand or flavour of park, and still cater to the markets they have targeted now.

This should be one of the simplest things for Merlin to think about - and right on the M25, accessible from pretty much everywhere from the Midlands down.

I mean, how wide a target market do you need to bring those plans into action?

So obvious to me this one, really is, and really would not take much to sort out relatively speaking.

(I think Zufari looks excellent by the way, but still will not satisfy their needs for another couple of thrill attractions - a little B&M would work wonders!)

 

[electricBlll]

Re: Thorpe Park

I also think making Chessington into a more zoo focused attraction is completely daft.

Chessington should be concentrating on family thrill, being creative with their ride offerings - bringing in new family/moderate thrill attractions, and taking care of the zoo as they do.

It makes me shudder to think of them having less rides, and more animals - and that is from an animal lover.

Chessington has practically nowhere to expand except for an adjacent field or two. It is surrounded by green belt land on one side, where they cannot construct anything major, and the town of Chessington on the other.

The reason John Wardley gave up on Chessington was because it became apparent there was nowhere else to go. In fact they only just managed to get away with building The Vampire, and that hardly goes very high. Vampire should technically be removed according to the current restrictions, and after it has gone nothing that large can ever be built in its place again.

Chessington will never be able to compete with nearby Thorpe Park in terms of big thrill rides. What a change that is from 20 years ago when Chessington opened Europe's first suspended coaster, while Thorpe Park's closest thrill ride was Depth Charge. But now Chessington will have to sell itself as a themed "adventure" experience rather than a straight theme park because the zoo is its only real advantage.

So I don't think it is a case of more zoo and less rides. Zufari is literally the only thing they can build on that field since it will have minimal impact on the landscape, so they are actually being quite clever by getting around the restrictions and making the most of that huge space. Rather than having a struggling theme park and an undersold zoo, they are merging the two together into a stronger, more marketable attraction.

Remember, they have been wanting to emphasise the zoo/resort for several years now. Their first move as part of this plan was to create Wild Asia, which in my opinion is the best themed area since Forbidden Kingdom. Also they are well aware that they need a new rollercoaster to take the strain off Vampire and Dragon's Fury, so they certainly won't be removing rides to make way for animal enclosures.

If anything they are slowly taking Chessington back to its roots, both in terms of bringing the zoo back in the limelight and returning to the original plan for a "world of adventures". The themes had become progressively weird and irrelevant over the years - moving from Asian, European and Egyptian areas to Beanoland and mythical dragons. But now they are back on track with the "world" concept and I think it is working very well.

 

[TheMan]

Re: Thorpe Park

I agree with everything you say there Bill.

I like Zufari it looks brilliant and will prove I hope to be a fantastic attraction - certainly unique to the UK at least.

They need to somehow get those restrictions relaxed! The economy right now as it is, is a perfect time to push for better conditions. I'm not talking green belt land obviously - and I am sure this is something they think about anyway, but we really need to address this Nimby culture towards quality attractions!

 

[Dave]

Re: Thorpe Park

Just need to tip this back towards topic a bit. Though i agree with your comments Bill.

But although they are going in the right direction with Chessington i still strongly feel they have marketed Thorpe at a demongraphic that doesn't really spend that much money.

 

[TheMan]

Re: Thorpe Park

.. i still strongly feel they have marketed Thorpe at a demongraphic that doesn't really spend that much money.

Freudian Slip there Dave or what?

 

[Islander]

Re: Thorpe Park

Once again I do wish they offered a (free for an annual pass holder) shuttle bus service between Chessington and Thorpe Park!

But why would they ever do that? They're never going to want to encourage guests to stay at either park for any less time than one day, and the number of people wanting to spend a day at one and the day at the other would be minimal (and certainly not enough to warrant a bus service), as the two cater to different markets.

 

[Ted]

Re: Thorpe Park

I never really understood the whole shuttle bus between Thorpe and Chessie, I've seen it as kind of pointless. It people wanted to go to Thorpe Park for the day, surely they'd just go to Thorpe Park for the whole day and perhaps Chessington another time?

Once again I do wish they offered a (free for an annual pass holder) shuttle bus service between Chessington and Thorpe Park!

But why should it just be free for MAP holders? Imagine who much it would cost someone to get entry tickets to both Thorpe and Chessie, the price of the shuttle bus and stuff to spend in both parks? Besides I generally so no reason to do both Thorpe and Chessie in one day.