What exactly has Kier been indecisive about since becoming leader? He isn't very charismatic and clearly doesn't engage people however he is morally sensible and clear with his views, just watch PMQ's and see him outline why what Boris is doing is morally wrong and his take on it. Kier isn't in government he can't be decisive on laws, on emergencies or anything but his personality and views of the Labour party. The media are on a trail to make the country hate Kier for, well actually I don't know what. They seem to be suggesting he's a bit indecisive and then try and present conspiracy theories. It's like Harold Wilson all over again, apart from Wilson had some charisma and was an amazing public speaker.
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UK politics general discussion
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Dave
TS Founding Member
I mean that didn’t answer the question about what decisions Starmer hasn’t made, you said he was indecisive, how has that indecision manifested?
Plastic Person
TS Member
So, hold up, Corbyn is dismissed with "enough said" (I presume that's in regard to his far left politics, and his ultimate failure with the public), whereas Tony Blair "did more harm to the Labour party than anyone else". Are you referring to the Iraq War or the foundations Blair laid for the current, neo-liberal and ultimately right-leaning version of Labour we've currently got?
The media are doing their best to make the current strikes seem selfish, but the effects of permanent austerity and the very-obvious cost of living crisis for even the established middle class in the UK has become strikingly obvious. Teachers, NHS staff and other key workers, or "heroes" as they apparently were to the government a year or so ago, will follow with action. There's a great opportunity here for Labour to really put their foot down when it comes to broad, inclusive economic policy; the energy company tax windfall idea mooted is a strong start. Instead, Starmer seems so frightened of the press, that he won't make a call on anything bar banning his own colleagues from the picket line. He didn't even properly condemn the Rwanda deportations. I agree that he has a moral core, especially in comparison to Johnson, but more often than not, he appears spineless.
Labour have shifted far to the right from their past principles, but their is still room for a decent middle-ground leader for a divided Britain, perhaps even of the sort @GaryH is imagining but seemingly unable to pinpoint the qualities thereof. A less entrenched and frankly, more left-wing Labour leader would take a look at the policies Corbyn mooted that proved popular despite his failure, make it clear that the current ruling class are laughing in the faces of the populace and they should walk it next time round. But it is no longer 1997.
The idea that Boris Johnson is a 'strong leader' is absolute fallacy. He is not resilient, he is just a cowardly sociopath, and as far as world leaders go, not even an impressive one. The culture of shamelessness, sh*t stirring and outright lies that have come to define the current government would be unimaginable even a decade ago.
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Dave
TS Founding Member
Labour haven’t shifted to the right at all. The issue with the left in the Labour Party is they forget that they need to win, they would rather stand in complete principle and watch the Tories destroy the country than actually win.
Fact is Labour still have quite a left wing agenda, but this country is a country of centrists so if you have a decent campaign you shout about your popular policies with the centre and less about your left wing policies. This is where the Tory’s are far more savvy, they shout about their centrist policies at election and then when in power actually deliver right wing policies.
It’s annoying but that’s the way to win in a first past the post voting system.
I will say Kier is a little dull but that’s another story.
Plastic Person
TS Member
I strongly disagree with this, although I wouldn't necessarily have done a few years ago. Even under the latter period of Blair/Brown there was a broader spectrum of opinion within Labour, and a less severe whip. Currently, those striking in the RMT* are doing so simply to fight for a wage that allows for a basic cost of living in crisis. When and if teachers, NHS workers and maybe even police officers, sick of years of enforced and increasingly baseless austerity making their jobs near impossible decide to do the same, the opposition party should, even if just in terms of optics, have their back. But the current iteration of Labour is refusing to do so, even though it's clear the ceiling is beginning to crack and people - just normal people, not trotskyites - are feeling an extreme, uncomfortable pinch.
There are undoubtedly ideologues within the Labour party, but their reach appears to be pretty minimal, especially in regards to the ideologues leading government right now. And if it feels like you're beginning to hear more from them, I suppose that extreme circumstances inspire and embolden extreme responses. I think it speaks volumes that when a union boss like Mick Lynch does make a series of media appearances, as has been their role this week, they are accused baselessly in some rags of harbouring Putin sympathies or have to endure fifteen minutes of this nonsense with Kay Burley. The right-wing media have this country's political discourse in a metal vice, and even a man explaining his position suffers attempts to be tarred and feathered.
It is historically the case that the UK is a nation of centrists who need to be won over. I'm a realist and no Corbynite myself, but a Labour leader should feel compelled to explicitly stick up for the working person, not bring the whip down on those wanting to protect quality of life. To return to the initial root of this reply, the Tories have successfully moved the goalposts on UK political life so shamelessly that sensible centrism is now surely further to the right than before.
*National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers. Not the Runaway Mine Train.
Sorry Dave...
Labour have shifted massively to the right over the last half century.
Blair didn't just get blood on his hands.
He shifted the party to the right with a massive jump.
New Labour really did become Old Tory.
He had a massive majority, he could have increased taxation, he could have selected progressive taxation, he could have followed clause 4, he could have stopped simple economic poverty for the underclass, he could have moved to a more proportionate form of elections...but he didn't.
He sang to the new rich working classes, with Oasis joining in for the chorus in number 10.
That was the sticking to the right that Thatcher dragged us into.
So he increased divisions between rich and poor, by keeping the "new rich" rich...stuff the poor, not as many votes.
Blair was a disaster for Labour and the working classes.
Yet another fine Eton Mess.
Labour have shifted massively to the right over the last half century.
Blair didn't just get blood on his hands.
He shifted the party to the right with a massive jump.
New Labour really did become Old Tory.
He had a massive majority, he could have increased taxation, he could have selected progressive taxation, he could have followed clause 4, he could have stopped simple economic poverty for the underclass, he could have moved to a more proportionate form of elections...but he didn't.
He sang to the new rich working classes, with Oasis joining in for the chorus in number 10.
That was the sticking to the right that Thatcher dragged us into.
So he increased divisions between rich and poor, by keeping the "new rich" rich...stuff the poor, not as many votes.
Blair was a disaster for Labour and the working classes.
Yet another fine Eton Mess.
Dave
TS Founding Member
The party whips are implemented for voting not for outside activity.
I wasn’t convinced on the issue of asking shadow ministers to not join picket lines but the logic is these strikes are a godsend for Johnson as it’s a distraction and allows him to blame any sumner economic numbers basically on Labour, still think they shouldn’t have sent out the memo though as it made a non story into a story.
Well that wasn’t the question, the statement said the Labour Party has shifted “far to the right”, all parties shift around their base (at the moment the Tory party has shifted further right). But to say Labour are right wing is disingenuous at best. Certainly Blair moved it as far right as it’s ever moved, but still ploughed far more money into public services than any government in the last 40 years. Milliband tugged it back a bit left and Corbyn really shifted it. Starmer is to the right of Corbyn and to the left of Miliband at the moment, but as you only really create a manifesto once in election season it’s hard to see to what extent the party will finally land on the scale.
Blair abandoned the traditional Labour core vote.
The party has struggled with its identity ever since, and the electorate has walked away from the party, leaving the active members to squabble about where the party is going.
All the while Blair earns millions on the after dinner lecture market, like a good socialist would.
The party has struggled with its identity ever since, and the electorate has walked away from the party, leaving the active members to squabble about where the party is going.
All the while Blair earns millions on the after dinner lecture market, like a good socialist would.
Dave
TS Founding Member
It’s a bit more complicated than that, for my money the party has been really bad at electing leaders with any voter appeal for the last few years. Even Starmer isn’t exactly appealing, he’s just seen as “less bad” than the alternative.
Milliband was awkward.
Corbyn was too far left for most peoples tastes and had horrific advisors who he trusted way to much.
Traditional working class voters are attracted to the populist policies of the Tory’s and Left wing policies please the young who don’t vote, we also have the fact the left vote is split by three parties at the moment as the Lib Dems shifted left of centre in 2010, they are now shifting right of centre which may help Labour.
I do agree Blair made a huge mistake (driven by power) of not bringing in PR but that’s a whole other story.
The issue is that there isn't and hasn't been any compelling left wing leaders. The last one I can think of is Harold Wilson, Corbyn although partly the media's fault, wasn't popular as was seen as too far to the left. Labour is a valid option for the next election but I think a lot of tactical voting is going to be happening, I think a coalition of perhaps Labour, Liberal Democrats and possibly the greens is the best scenario, this would be very similar to the current German traffic light government and I see that as a good thing.
pluk
TS Member
Police officer are not allowed to strike. We are not employees, we are officers of the crown. This means we do not have many of the rights other workers take for granted, including that of striking or having a union. There is some pay off in that we can not be made redundant either, but it leaves us massively vulnerable to being shafted. Which we have been.
I don't think it's helpful to have a who's been treated worse than who competition, but when you are amongst the very worst hit over the last decade it's frustrating to see others comparatively well renumerated for the work they do going out on strike. Barristers next, which is just insulting to most working people.
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Brown was never going to carry on the Blair legacy, whatever that was as he simply wasn't as engaging as him, though a decent person, and at the time, much less toxic than Blair.
Milliband I always thought was the wrong Milliband, should of been his brother. Agree he was rather awkward.
Corbyn became a bit too much of a cult like figure in some circles.
Starmer just seems dull. A work colleague of mine calls him 'Charisma'.
Regardless of all the pros and cons of any of the leaders, the right wing press jump on any minor indiscretion but at the same time tell us to get behind Johnson and forgive his misdemeanours over partygate and applaud his general buffoonery as quintessentially English.
Milliband I always thought was the wrong Milliband, should of been his brother. Agree he was rather awkward.
Corbyn became a bit too much of a cult like figure in some circles.
Starmer just seems dull. A work colleague of mine calls him 'Charisma'.
Regardless of all the pros and cons of any of the leaders, the right wing press jump on any minor indiscretion but at the same time tell us to get behind Johnson and forgive his misdemeanours over partygate and applaud his general buffoonery as quintessentially English.
I really like Brown, maybe because I think we’ve got quite a bit in common and also because i think he is a competent kind chap who never got a proper time to shine due to being put into n10 just as the recession happened. I would actually be happy if he came out of retirement.
Benzin
TS Member
Why? Because they earn a lot? Oh wait they're striking because of a refusal to increase Legal Aid.
Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61866343
Like any group of workers, they're suffering through poor mismanagement and an infrastructure that is not fit for purpose. They have the ability to strike and given how the government's position is to be "tough on crime" whilst doing very little in terms of getting things done beyond increase arrest numbers (which will also likely not do anything good for the current public opinion of the police having to fulfil those numbers).
Considering the current climate, all those who are able to strike probably will going forwards. And if the government refuse to engage or blame the opposition for it they will continue the bad feeling. The by-elections last night showed the discontent is still there in amongst all the scandals and lies.
Genuine question no right or wrong answer but out of all the politicians across all parties at the moment who would you like to be PM?
The only reason Boris I’d still in power is because I don’t believe there is any other competitor at the moment but I’d someone else could take over who would you like to see at the helm?
The only reason Boris I’d still in power is because I don’t believe there is any other competitor at the moment but I’d someone else could take over who would you like to see at the helm?
pluk
TS Member
A refusal to increase legal aid to pay them. Unhappy with the 15% £7000 increase on the table. I can't see too many of the public weeping for them.
Matt N
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Shambhala (PortAventura Park)
It appears Boris Johnson’s position has grown more precarious. Both Wakefield and Tiverton & Horniton were lost by the Conservatives yesterday, to Labour and the Liberal Democrats respectively, and Conservative chairman Oliver Dowden has resigned as a result.
Boris Johnson and the cabinet have insisted that he will soldier on, but his position is growing more unstable…
Boris Johnson and the cabinet have insisted that he will soldier on, but his position is growing more unstable…