UK Politics General Discussion

[rob666]

But we have got rid of the bastard Boris from government, so we can always look on the bright side.
The Tory press has had a field day, but knows it is in "opposition" for a few years...so can only bitch.
But because of everything Matt has listed, I can honestly say I'm glad I'm old, with another decade or so to go, because the whole planet does seem to be going to hell in a handcart...and the cart does nothing but speed up.
You forgot climate change Matt, that is what is probably going to kill off society and civilisation, within the current lifetime of small children currently on the planet's crust.
Things really are becoming that bad...another hottest year ever, the glaciers melting ever faster, and still you can get a plane ticket to Poland for eighteen quid.
Selfish desire still burns like fire.

Austerity is here for decades, not years.
We haven't even started to pay for covid yet.

 

[BarryZola]

Yep, all that's left is managed decline. Happy Tuesday everyone

 

[Matt.GC]

It's sad guys, but what you've both stated is fact. Most of that is true for much of the rest of the developed world as well, only here we have some self inflicted stuff to pile on top.

 

[Benzin]

State pension potentially going up.

Might cover the RAGE of the means testing.

 

[Quantum]

Spending 11 billion on overseas climate aid is utter bonkers. Labour is already burning through the good will they generated from the last election.

 

[jon81uk]

I do think the pensions credit system needs looking at to make sure the means testing works properly as there probably is some people just over the threshold who really needed the winter payment, but it would be better to sort the whole thing out and give those truly in need more money overall rather than just for the winter.

 

[Benzin]

Ideally they'd go to the energy companies and say "stop taking the mick out of everyone" or give OFGEM some actual power and reduce it for everyone.

With means testing there will always be some who miss the cut off point. We do with Mrs' PIP/etc. because I earn too much and we live toghether. Daft thing when she'd get more benefits if we lived separately. But you do have to put it somewhere, otherwise there's no point in means testing anything.

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

Spending 11 billion on overseas climate aid is utter bonkers. Labour is already burning through the good will they generated from the last election.

I agree, should be much higher. The thing about climate change is that, funnily enough, it doesn't abide by the borders or nation states. If we as a nation, let alone a species, want to survive in any possible future we need to ensure that we actually have a hospitable world to live in.

It's our mess to clean up. We got the world hooked on cheap fossil fuels, we took full advantage of them to be able to get to where we are now and generate cleaner methods of production. We owe a debt, it ought to be paid back.

Won't somebody please think of the goslings?

 

[Matt.GC]

Means testing is a fact of life. It happens at every stage in life, sometimes with uncomfortable bench marks that have to be placed somewhere, so why stop at retirement age? There's a lot of demonisation surrounding the national benefits bill, but when you consider that over 40% of it (that could well now be higher) is spent on pensioner benefits where there is very little means testing, it clearly needs looking at.

The irony is that universally stuffing cash into people's bank accounts just because they've reached an age benchmark actually causes more pensioner poverty. The spending on pensioners as a group is so high, and the public finances are so tight, that the government is likely to be more reluctant to spend on genuinely easing pensioner poverty on those that need it most. A millionaire 75 year old currently gets the same bus pass, TV licence, and winter fuel benefits as a 75 year old living on pension credit in a damp flat. That ain't right.

I agree that the whole means testing of pensioner benefits needs reform as the thresholds may be a little off so may need further scrutiny before the winter. But the government are generally driving to get more pensioners to sign up for pension credit this autumn and have said as much. If anyone is concerned about someone falling through the cracks, maybe consider being a good friend/family member/neighbour and either helping them or at least raising awareness and referring them to citizens advice, rather than falling for sour grapes Daily Telegraph, or bleeding heart Guardian headlines.

The best way to tackle it would be to ensure there is a robust system in place to means test all pensioners, like is expected for working people, disabled people, and children. When you have a clear picture, don't spend a single penny more on the super wealthy ones, and lift the many pensioners in poverty out of it instead. Also, a National Care Service free at the point of need would benefit everyone, but that's blue sky dreams in the current climate.

What isn't an option is just putting our fingers in our ears, the treasury continuing to top up the bank accounts of millionaires, and pretend that everything is fine. That's where we are at the moment.

 

[rob666]

Won't somebody please think of the goslings?

Yes, that fine dish from Tuscany...Stewed gosling.

Winter fuel allowance...heard lots of guff about pensioners "working all their lives for their payment"...funny that, it has been around for less than thirty years, how did the poor pensioners ever manage before?

We shouldn't be worried about the pensioners, we should be more concerned about the prisons, they are full to the roof with dodgy sods getting three lovely aramark meals a day for free, and costing us a grand a week to keep each and every one of the buggers idle.

Letting them out a bit early, but a third will be back inside within a year anyway.
Whipping off limbs is so much cheaper.

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

A millionaire 75 year old currently gets the same bus pass, TV licence, and winter fuel benefits as a 75 year old living on pension credit in a damp flat. That ain't right.

Point of order, the free TV licence is now means tested. Another bribe from Blair/Brown, being paid for by the government, politicised by Osborne and forced onto the BBC themselves.

Wonder why the BBC finances are suddenly so stretched, despite property and IP sell offs? The cost of free television licences and the World Service (previously established and paid for by the Foreign Office) was unexpectedly placed upon them.

There's a lot of demonisation surrounding the national benefits bill, but when you consider that over 40% of it (that could well now be higher) is spent on pensioner benefits where there is very little means testing, it clearly needs looking at.

Funnily enough, I did break down DWP's spending on the benefit system earlier in this thread. Over 50% of DWP's budget is spent on pensions alone.

DWP's projected budget for benefit payments is £265.5 billion this year alone. Damn those benefit scroungers taking advantage of our generous system, but let's dig a little deeper and break it down.

Benefits though?! What about benefit scroungers?!

£59.8 billion is spent on Universal Credit and equivalent benefits (JSA etc).

£39.2 billion is spent on Disability and caring benefits.

£14.3 billion on housing benefit.

£13.3 billion on incapacity benefit.

£7.7 billion on cost of living payments.

£4.7 billion on other benefits.

But all of these benefits combined don't equal half of our overall benefit budget spend, so where does the rest go? Who are the scroungers? Who's getting all of that money? That hundreds of billions?

£134.8 billion is spent on pensioner benefits.

Why aren't they a target? They are by far the most politically active group and the most likely to vote.

I am not for one moment suggesting that the pensioner budget should be slashed, cut, or that pensioners shouldn't get their pensions. I'm using them to highlight how the real "problems" or big costs are never faced head on, or are spin for a political agenda and a cheap vote.

(Source for benefit breakdown: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cdp-2023-0154/#:~:text=The DWP's total proposed expenditure,£265.5 billion (95%). )

 

[Quantum]

I agree, should be much higher. The thing about climate change is that, funnily enough, it doesn't abide by the borders or nation states. If we as a nation, let alone a species, want to survive in any possible future we need to ensure that we actually have a hospitable world to live in.

It's our mess to clean up. We got the world hooked on cheap fossil fuels, we took full advantage of them to be able to get to where we are now and generate cleaner methods of production. We owe a debt, it ought to be paid back.

Won't somebody please think of the goslings?

No it's not our mess to clean up and please don't presume you speak for everyone as you certainly don't speak for me. The industrial revolution was a good thing and lifted millions out of poverty. If we didn't get there first France of Germany would have a few years later.

I'm sick and tired of people telling me everything we did or our ancestors did was really bad , we should feel bad and truck loads of cash is the only way of fixing things. So no I don't like my taxes being spent on schemes abroad for climate change because it will make zero difference.

 

[Plastic Person]

The industrial revolution was a good thing and lifted millions out of poverty. If we didn't get there first France of Germany would have a few years later.

I don't think anybody is denying that the Industrial Revolution lifted millions out of poverty; that is well-documented and broadly undisputed. The issue is that, a few centuries later, and the unchecked environmental side-effects of the industrial revolution now risk putting people back into poverty. Those plucky runners up of the steam age, France and Germany, are also investing in climate aid.

If it makes you feel any more reassured from a preservation aspect, the motivation to fund this is partially driven by the looming threat of dealing with millions of climate refugees in the future. There'll be even less time for Isambard Kingdom Brunel trivia when entire eco-systems are rapidly collapsing.

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

The industrial revolution was a good thing and lifted millions out of poverty. If we didn't get there first France of Germany would have a few years later.

The industrial revolution only lifted people out of poverty because some of the profit from it was put back into making the system, and living conditions, better. Domestically and, crucially, abroad in states we'd colonised. It did cause a wider divide than ever though, between the haves and have-nots.

Incidentally, you can't really conquer 1/3rd of the world, mess up the internal affairs of various nations, screw over their economies and then shrug off any responsibility.

 

[Quantum]

The industrial revolution only lifted people out of poverty because some of the profit from it was put back into making the system, and living conditions, better. Domestically and, crucially, abroad in states we'd colonised. It did cause a wider divide than ever though, between the haves and have-nots.

Incidentally, you can't really conquer 1/3rd of the world, mess up the internal affairs of various nations, screw over their economies and then shrug off any responsibility.

I'm convinced some people was to go back to the good old days of living in wooden huts, one meal a day and a living to a grand old age of 40.

I don't see why me or my family should take responsibility for problems we didn't cause. But if spending 11 billion makes you feel better about in then happy days

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

We shouldn't be worried about the pensioners, we should be more concerned about the prisons, they are full to the roof with dodgy sods getting three lovely aramark meals a day for free, and costing us a grand a week to keep each and every one of the buggers idle.

Letting them out a bit early, but a third will be back inside within a year anyway.
Whipping off limbs is so much cheaper.

Further point of order, Aramark only provide catering services to private prisons in this country and even then they only provide management / supervision roles. Food is still prepared, cooked and served by the residents themselves in the kitchens.

As for being idle, one of the most lucrative profit centres are the HMPPS workshops / industries. Every sentenced prisoner has to work, or be enrolled in education. Every establishment has several factory style workshops turning everything out from McDonald's Happy Meal toys, to trailer boards, to plumbing accessories. A fair few industrial launderettes also subcontract to HMPPS. Someone really ought to submit on FOI and see how much revenue is generated for the treasury.

It's made casting for this year's panto season a bit of a nightmare though.

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

I don't see why me or my family should take responsibility for problems we didn't cause. But if spending 11 billion makes you feel better about in then happy days

Didn't cause, but have massively benefitted from. It's time to pay the Piper.

£11 billion is also a relative drop in the ocean, it's less than the £12 billion Disney have committed to invest in Disney World:

https://www.wusf.org/politics-issues/2024-06-05/disney-set-to-invest-17-billion-in-parks-desantis-settlement

You also need to remember that OUR centuries of emissions and pollution have poisoned the world already. We are paying to clean up the mess that we've created, although clearly we value our responsibility far less than Disney do a new gate.

 

[DiogoJ42]

I feel that 85% of the problems in this country would be solved simply by culling all retirees. Usless consumers who contribute nothing, but take and hoard for themselves, then have the nerve to demand more.
Shoot the lot of 'em.

 

[rob666]

Funnily enough, I did break down DWP's spending on the benefit system earlier in this thread. Over 50% of DWP's budget is spent on pensions alone.

Come on goosey, that is only now...what with a rapidly ageing population, reduction in birthrate, reduced "real" working population to pay for it, together with a loss of healthy young immigrants, the handcart to hell runs even quicker.

And only kidding about nibbling on the goslings...

I feel that 85% of the problems in this country would be solved simply by culling all retirees. Usless consumers who contribute nothing, but take and hoard for themselves, then have the nerve to demand more.
Shoot the lot of 'em.

Some useless pensioners pay a great deal of tax via purchases and petrol, council tax and vehicle excise duty.
They also make up the majority of volunteers in the charity sector.
And one of my lovely punters still pays around 100k per year in income tax...
Are we going to make him walk the plank too?
So we should just shoot the poor ones.

Just let the ones with a strong desire to die do so compassionately and legally.
That would still save the state a few billion a year without doubt, it would also be a vote winner.




Take and hoard for themselves...that sounds like bloody piracy!

 

[Benzin]

Incidentally, you can't really conquer 1/3rd of the world, mess up the internal affairs of various nations, screw over their economies and then shrug off any responsibility.

RULE BRITTANIA, BRITTANIA RULES THE WAVES.