UK Politics General Discussion

[Dave]

None of the farmers near me are rich, I'm not saying there isn't wealthy farmers but the average salary of a farmer is nothing to write home about and many farms struggle to make a profit. If it paid that well they wouldn't be struggling to get younger people into the industry.

The sheer glee of the hard left at putting farms out of business is disgusting. I hope the government gets nothing from this tax and I hope they find and ways of avoiding it until it's inevitably abolished.

There is no glee, there is a desire to see rich people pay the rate of tax poor people pay.

If a farmer is standing on land with a high enough value that triggers this tax and they are not turning a profit they are either lying or very bad at being a farmer.

 

[rob666]

Lots of companies fail to make a profit, but the staff are still kept in a comfortable position within the firm.
They struggle to bring in new young blood because the newer generations don't want to work outdoors or for long hours.
And please tell me the area where there are no rich farmers, tenants (no iht) aside...I struggle to think of such an area, apart from the very far north.

 

[jon81uk]

The likes of Clarkson, Dyson and all the big land owners will be fine as they have the means to swerve the tax.

Clarkson has openly admitted that he bought the land to swerve tax. The farm was his means to avoid it.

None of the farmers near me are rich, I'm not saying there isn't wealthy farmers but the average salary of a farmer is nothing to write home about and many farms struggle to make a profit. If it paid that well they wouldn't be struggling to get younger people into the industry.

The sheer glee of the hard left at putting farms out of business is disgusting. I hope the government gets nothing from this tax and I hope they find and ways of avoiding it until it's inevitably abolished.

Blame the supermarkets and the multinational food companies. Our groceries are significantly lower prices than many countries. A potential future tax isn’t making farmers poor right now, it’s poor pay they get from the people buying their produce.

 

[Relife]

There is no glee, there is a desire to see rich people pay the rate of tax poor people pay.

If a farmer is standing on land with a high enough value that triggers this tax and they are not turning a profit they are either lying or very bad at being a farmer.

You don't pay inheritance tax under 350k

Btw the NFU says this will affect 60-70% of farms, a good chunk of those to go out of business and the coat of food will go up

Many farmers are.makimg small profits, and they about to hammered with yet another tax on fertilizer which will.push costs up further.

You also forget that one bad harvest can effectively wipe out any profit they would make in a whole year. It's a high risk industry with minimal rewards where the left think your pure scum because you don't vote the right way and own a bit of land and shock horror, drive. Range Rover which isn't the status symbol you think it is.

I live be near Preston, non of the farmers round here are cash rich. Where are they supposed to find the money to pay this tax? If you actually listen to farmers they are already saying the industry is on its arse through rising costs and over regulation.

 

[AT86]

Pass the farm down to your successor 7 years before you die. No IHT.

Job done.

 

[Relife]

Pass the farm down to your successor 7 years before you die. No IHT.

Job done.

Just have to make sure you don't die in those seven years

 

[D4n]

I suggest that @Relife listens to the latest episode of “The Rest is Money” podcast.

They’re quite negative on the Labour budget overall , and the decisions that they’ve made in terms of which taxes to raise, so clearly not a biased source, but they put to bed a lot of the misconceptions that you have.

Very, very few farms will be affected. Those that are will have ways of swerving the tax.

It is, as others have suggested in this thread, a way to prevent tax avoidance through land purchase .

The farmers protesting, I would suggest, are being willfully ignorant

 

[rob666]

... Range Rover which isn't the status symbol you think it is.

I live be near Preston, non of the farmers round here are cash rich. ...

Citation very much needed.

Land Rover Range Rover ...the farmers favourite...starts at around a hundred grand.
Even "cheap" Evokes are around fifty...poor mens cars.

I live near Preston too.
I know no poor farmers in the area.
I know several rich ones, a couple who purchased the farm to duck tax, then make money on subsidies.
Then they ripped out the hedgerows.

 

[Matt.GC]

This reminds me of the conspiracy theories surrounding the removal of the Winter Fuel Voting Bribe. The debunked theory being spouted that 93 year old Mavis living off her state pension in a 1 bed council flat was going to freeze to death this winter. The reality being that 70 year old Ken living a comfortable life in a £600k semi was the one doing the complaining.

Now struggling farmers, 95% of whom won't have to pay this tax, are reaching for multi-millionaire Jeremy Clarkson to drive his Lamborghini tractor down Whitehall on their behalf so that he can continue with his planned tax dodge.

I really wish people would consider facts before forming an opinion, rather than just taking in the latest headline on the front page of the Daily Express doing the rounds on social media.

The facts are thus. Farmers will pay half price inheritance tax on assets of over £1m, a much higher threshold than us normal people. Each member of a married couple is entitled to the relief, so that's £2m. £1m relief on a home, so a married couple with a farmhouse wouldn't have to pay it until £3m. This can be avoided by passing the farm on 7 years before death, or by passing on a business as a going concern.

It's not perfect, I accept. But it's targeted (somewhat haphazardly) at the wealthier farmers, not these struggling farmers as is being portrayed. The struggles of UK farming is a separate issue entirely. Something has to be done, I would agree, but this is an inheritance tax issue, not a day to day farming regulations one.

That's why the rich farmers are up in arms on the behalf of the struggling ones, because it's the rich ones that are worried. Just like the rich pensioners choosing to get offended on poorer pensioners behalf.

And Inheritance Tax is a progressive tax. Should be much higher in my opinion.

 

[Benzin]

There is certainly some concern towards some farms, due to the variable nature of the industry and how it can be affected by many external factors. Clarkson has mentioned as such in his series but he is covered by his farming failures through the Amazon money on top of everything else.

However, should we really have an issue with there being a decent level of regulation on a major food production source? Deregulation is never a good thing for the poor, and often serves to make those in charge more money. Just wait and see what our American friends realise what that means by this time next year. Farming needs to move with the modern times like many other industries needed to.

I don't think there's any glee about farmers (or anyone) who are actually struggling. It's just amusing that the loudest complainers are often the ones who have the money to survive, and are just annoyed they've lost out on a loophole, or £300 to put to the Christmas shop.

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

We're also conveniently ignoring the existing Inheritance Tax nil rate band, worth £1 million to a couple & a surviving spouse.

In this scenario, a £2 million pound farm can be passed on without any tax liability at all. Anything above the £2 million cap will be taxed.

 

[Relife]

NFU saying 60% of farms will have to pay, far higher than the government is claiming. So someone is telling fibs. Where are they getting that cash from? If farmers could afford it they wouldn't be protesting.

The all farmer are rich narrative is hilarious by the way, my grandad was a farmer and he certainly wasn't rich.

Some of the comments on here are super depressing, the fact people would gladly see farms and the general countryside obliterated, go out of business and gobbled up by huge corporations or developers beggars belief.

Anyway at least we can all look forward to food inflation on top of rising unemployment.

 

[jon81uk]

Anyway at least we can all look forward to food inflation on top of rising unemployment.

Adding inheritance tax won't immediately cause food inflation. Given someone has to die and pass the land on, it would be a few years before that happens. Paying the farmers properly needs to happen anyway, why is milk cheaper than Coca-Cola? This is a seperate issue.

The all farmer are rich narrative is hilarious by the way, my grandad was a farmer and he certainly wasn't rich.

Who is saying all farmers are rich? Most people are saying a very small amount have assets over £2m and therefore inheritance tax is due. Generally I thought the consensus is some farmers are wealthy, some have a lot of assets/land and most are just fine. But equally if someone doesn't have a viable business then they don't have a business and need to consider if it is worth hanging on to that business (no matter what the industry).

 

[Benzin]

Just seen that for farms it'll be 20% rate rather than the usual 40%.

Or just change the deed in enough time and avoid it completely.


In similar news, few retailers are kicking up a fuss about the tax rises. Ironic for Amazon especially. But again, given their profits are in the millions, the sympathy for the companies is very much lacking. Oh no it'll have to be a profit of £2.5m p/a rather than £3m, won't someone please think of the shareholders.

 

[GaryH]

With regards the farmers situation, without farms providing food, milk, helping cut hedges along country lanes, taking sewerage from water firms, helping maintain the land and wildlife. The UK (which mostly produces very little as it is) will be even more reliant on imports. And in a world where we are trying to stop climate change, do we want even more planes and boats bringing produce into our country as we can’t produce it ourselves?

When you think these farms have stayed in families for generations, been built up in size over the years, to then have to pay money to keep it does seem a tad unfair - but I also from a non farmer perspective appreciate I would have to pay inheritance tax on any property left to me, even if that home was left to me from previous generations. It is a difficult situation.

I’ll just put this here but I believe the US did a similar thing quite some time ago. Farms were sold. Guess who owns the most farm land in the USA now? Bill Gates.

He doesn’t farm on it. It’s just for investment.

Bill Gates is the biggest private owner of farmland in the United States. Why? | Bill Gates | The Guardian

Gates has been buying land like it’s going out of style. He now owns more farmland than my entire Native American nation

amp.theguardian.com

 

[rob666]

Some of the comments on here are super depressing, the fact people would gladly see farms and the general countryside obliterated, go out of business and gobbled up by huge corporations or developers beggars belief.

Like I haven't yet met a poor farmer in the Preston area, I have also failed to notice a single post on here claiming they want to see farms and the general countryside obliterated and farms go out of business.
Not one.
You are making things up to fight your argument.
Everyone seems to be saying we should all be paying our taxes, and farmers aren't above the rest.

 

[jon81uk]

When you think these farms have stayed in families for generations, been built up in size over the years, to then have to pay money to keep it does seem a tad unfair - but I also from a non farmer perspective appreciate I would have to pay inheritance tax on any property left to me, even if that home was left to me from previous generations. It is a difficult situation.

I’ll just put this here but I believe the US did a similar thing quite some time ago. Farms were sold. Guess who owns the most farm land in the USA now? Bill Gates.

He doesn’t farm on it. It’s just for investment.

and surely taxing the large landholders more is a good thing then. It stops land as an investment being as lucrative and encourages smaller farms.

 

[Matt.GC]

This is an inheritance tax issue. It has nothing to do with the plight of UK farming. None whatsoever. No one is saying that food or British farming isn't important. That's what people like Clarkson want you to think so that they can avoid their taxes.

In fact, you'd have to question the intentions of a farmer with more than £3m of assets who hasn't incorporated their farm as a company before their death.

I live in a town where the vast amount of land surrounding it has been owned by an extremely wealthy farming dynasty. The head honcho died a few years ago when his Jack Russel killed him with a forklift.
BBC News - Farmer killed after dog hit truck lever

Farmer crushed to death after dog knocked truck lever

Derek Mead was crushed to death when his dog knocked a lever in his forklift truck, an inquest hears.

www.bbc.com

They still farm on some of the land in a reduced capacity, but also operate a tourist attraction (https://www.puxton.co.uk/?gad_sourc...UL2vmiLMt6S2PBsQASEMwwfj28-LJHz8aApFbEALw_wcB) and a development company.
(https://www.meadrealisations.co.uk/ ).

That's fine. It's their land, they've diversified, and we're desperate for homes. But they could have skipped huge sums of inheritance tax in order to do this.

They've diversified from farming because it's less lucrative. That has nothing to do with the inheritance tax they potentially had to ability to dodge.

I shed no tears for Clarkson's tax avoidance scheme blowing up in his face whatsoever.

Just like to VAT on luxury purchases like private education - pay your taxes.

 

[Relife]

Like I haven't yet met a poor farmer in the Preston area, I have also failed to notice a single post on here claiming they want to see farms and the general countryside obliterated and farms go out of business.
Not one.
You are making things up to fight your argument.
Everyone seems to be saying we should all be paying our taxes, and farmers aren't above the rest.

Farmers are literally saying they will go out of business, are you saying they are all liars? There was a guy on TV earlier his farm is worth 7 million roughly. Sounds alot but they have not made profit for the last 3 years. The inheritance tax would send them under. Add in taxes on 4x4s and fertilizer tax why the hell would anyone do this job. Long hours, minimal profit, poor mental health, left think your a bunch of grifters and everyone else seems quite happy to have most of our food imported.

 

[Matt.GC]

Farmers are literally saying they will go out of business, are you saying they are all liars? There was a guy on TV earlier his farm is worth 7 million roughly. Sounds alot but they have not made profit for the last 3 years.

Are some of them liars? Yes. Yes they are. Like a lot of rich people do to avoid tax. Some others are misled. Some others are struggling, so seeing this as an attack on their profession, and are thus using this as a platform to raise other issues.

And with the greatest respect, you seem to have fallen for the hype. You've been challenged with the facts by many of us numerous times, yet you're still mentioning the plight of farmers that are alive right now, and therefore by definition a tax paid on their assets when they die has nothing to do with how much they sell their milk and beef for this afternoon.

Instead of looking it up, you appear to have chosen your opinion, and all you seem to have based it on, and I quote, is some "guy on TV".