UK Politics General Discussion

[Matt N]

I do wonder whether they could maybe have picked a different eligibility threshold for this policy.

I don't deny that it needed to happen, and I definitely support it, but was eligibility for pension credit the right choice of eligibility criteria? Lots of poor pensioners don't qualify for pension credit for a plethora of reasons.

 

[Matt.GC]

I do wonder whether they could maybe have picked a different eligibility threshold for this policy.

I don't deny that it needed to happen, and I definitely support it, but was eligibility for pension credit the right choice of eligibility criteria? Lots of poor pensioners don't qualify for pension credit for a plethora of reasons.

It seems like winter fuel payments are now fully part of pension credit, which is absolutely the right thing to do.

However, I think you've made an important point. I just think it's more about pension credit itself. Is it fit for purpose? Is the criteria right?

Many of those moaning are nowhere near the Pension Credit threshold, so should be greatful they got away with this scam for as long as they did. But I accept that Pension credit could be somewhat of a cliff edge.

I'd like to see the threshold lifted to a higher level, paid for by means testing the state pension itself personally. But that ain't ever going to happen.

 

[GaryH]

I do wonder whether they could maybe have picked a different eligibility threshold for this policy.

I don't deny that it needed to happen, and I definitely support it, but was eligibility for pension credit the right choice of eligibility criteria? Lots of poor pensioners don't qualify for pension credit for a plethora of reasons.

That’s what I’ve been saying all along.

 

[Matt.GC]

That’s what I’ve been saying all along.

I'm not so sure you have. You declared some figures, that were almost immediately completely discreditted within a few paragraphs of a credible news article that you posted, as a "disgrace". I read it and found that the figure was nonsense within seconds. You've also rightly said that older people tend to feel the cold more, but haven't provided alternative ideas or solutions. So forgive my perceptions that you have been defending the £300 bribe scandal situation.

I think we all agree that this broken chirade couldn't carry on any longer, and I note that we both agree on that. The country is flat broke and the status quo was grossly unfair.

But a benchmark has to go somewhere. It's impossible to devise a highly expensive and beurocratic process in which to means test it in a timely manner, so linking it to pension credit seems logical to me.

So is this not more of a case of pension credit (and I would argue the whole benefits system) needing reform? And if this does happen, in which to ensure we live in a country that can take care of it's poorer pensioners, we need to look at how to pay for it?

 

[John_P]

The original point of them not means testing the winter fuel benefit was because the government realised that bringing in a system of applying for it would be a costly and confusing process. Plus the fact that they suspected some people would be too proud to be seen as asking for a handout. Which we're seeing now as it's quite clear that 1000s of pensioners have failed to apply for pension credit over the years. Struggling more than they needed to.

Another issue was for some reason the media loved to promote well off celebrity pensioners going on about how they didn't understand why they were getting the winter fuel payment year after year.

 

[rob666]

I do wonder whether they could maybe have picked a different eligibility threshold for this policy.

I don't deny that it needed to happen, and I definitely support it, but was eligibility for pension credit the right choice of eligibility criteria? Lots of poor pensioners don't qualify for pension credit for a plethora of reasons.

Sorry Matt, the system is there and works.
If you are a pensioner, and don't qualify for pension credit for a plethora of reasons, then you are not, by definition, a "poor pensioner".
You may not be well off, or cash rich, but you are not poor.
That is precisely what pension credit is all about.

The new government are doing all they can to make sure all old people claim their full rightful entitlement to benefits.
Something the last government was deliberately not very good at, in my humble opinion.

 

[Matt N]

Sorry Matt, the system is there and works.
If you are a pensioner, and don't qualify for pension credit for a plethora of reasons, then you are not, by definition, a "poor pensioner".
You may not be well off, or cash rich, but you are not poor.
That is precisely what pension credit is all about.

The new government are doing all they can to make sure all old people claim their full rightful entitlement to benefits.
Something the last government was deliberately not very good at, in my humble opinion.

I thought there were cracks in pension credit eligibility, like not being eligible if you’re married or similar, that means that some people don’t qualify for pension credit at all regardless of means?

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

I thought there were cracks in pension credit eligibility, like not being eligible if you’re married or similar, that means that some people don’t qualify for pension credit at all regardless of means?

You are eligible if you are married or partnered, the threshold for the cut off is higher for a couple than it is a single person.

Pension Credit

Pension Credit is extra money for pensioners to bring your weekly income up to a minimum amount - what you'll get, apply, eligibility.

www.gov.uk

Pension Credit tops up:

• your weekly income to £218.15 if you’re single
• your joint weekly income to £332.95 if you have a partner
• If your income is higher, you might still be eligible for Pension Credit if you have a disability, you care for someone, you have savings or you have housing costs.

 

[Benzin]

Any threshold that's decided will always have some just below the line.

Like I earn too much for Mrs to get her full range of possible disability benefits. Or to get carer's allowance. But that's the point to ensure (in theory) that those who can get by can get what they need without draining all of the money.

This is however arguable that some disabilities require more monetary assistance than others, and I cannot feasibly stop working and become a full time carer.

Much like how certain generations are told to stop buying Netflix so they can afford a house, some should practice what they preach.

 

[GaryH]

I'm not so sure you have..

erm, yes Matt I have since the day this was announced I said they should have set up a better way to establish who is eligible and who isn’t to really target those who don’t need the money (eg those who now live in warm climates) against those who really do need the money, and how it’s those close to the breadline who just miss out on the winter fuel payments who will be most hit by this.

Yes there are some very wealthy pensioners out there, but also some who just about get by, and have put some money into savings to hand down to grandchildren and family when they pass having worked all their lives to accumulate it. Plus of course their homes which have a value too. But then there is also the issue of social care should they need it later in life, when they may have to use their savings or sell their homes to fund it - or their heating for that matter.

The question must be asked why the UK has some of the most expensive gas and electricity bills across the EU and to some extent the world. And starmers GB energy isn’t going to fix this. Take the money from the indecent profits being made by the energy companies and give it to the pensioners as fuel credit.

We're number one... in unaffordable electricity

Introduction Each year, the Government publishes international energy price comparisons. The data is sourced from the IEA and covers industrial … Continue reading "We’re number one… in unaffordable electricity"

iea.org.uk

 

[Benzin]

Because all the generation is owned by companies. On top of not generating enough that we need so we have to import it. And then those companies robbing us dry to ensure they can give the shareholders some nice increasing profit year on year. Good old capitalism.

Years of low investment in infrastructure does that. As well as any infrastructure being built taking both an age and going over budget. And then allowing these companies to take the piss with it all. But of course that's what 14 years of Tory rule has allowed.

Bringing energy into state owned would be a good first step to helping it. As well as making OFGEM actually do something about the situation. Not sure why should give all the profits just to pensioners though.

 

[Matt.GC]

erm, yes Matt I have since the day this was announced I said they should have set up a better way to establish who is eligible and who isn’t to really target those who don’t need the money (eg those who now live in warm climates) against those who really do need the money, and how it’s those close to the breadline who just miss out on the winter fuel payments who will be most hit by this.

Yes there are some very wealthy pensioners out there, but also some who just about get by, and have put some money into savings to hand down to grandchildren and family when they pass having worked all their lives to accumulate it. Plus of course their homes which have a value too. But then there is also the issue of social care should they need it later in life, when they may have to use their savings or sell their homes to fund it - or their heating for that matter.

What better way to establish and who does and doesn't need the money other than using the Pension Credit system? The system is already there, doesn't need setting up, and can be implemented quickly.

So this is about Pension Credit itself isn't it?

I don't see what having money in savings to hand down, or "working all their lives" has anything to do with it. This is where I find the contradiction. As soon as I hear that phrase, I immediately think of entitled attitudes. You have means or you don't?

You are poor or you're not. You need £300 from the government or you don't. It's not a reward for being a certain age and "working all you life". I've worked consistently for 26 years, have small savings, I live in a valuable asset. If I lost my job tomorrow, they'd laugh me out of the Job Centre if I put a Universal Credit claim in. And rightly so, because I'm not poor.

 

[Matt N]

I think the reason for universal pensioner benefits drawing so much ire from people is not because “pensioners are all wealthy” or because there’s any intent of demonising the elderly.

It’s more because “pensioners”, like any other demographic in society, are not a homogenous mass with identical financial situations. Plenty of pensioners do really struggle and rely on that triple lock and winter fuel payment to get by, but plenty of others don’t. It’s the same as how plenty of working age people really struggle and rely on Universal Credit and other benefits to get by, but plenty of others don’t.

However, pensioners are/were the only demographic in society treated as a homogenous mass and given universal benefits by the government. Working age people have never been given universal Universal Credit or Jobseekers’ Allowance, children haven’t been given universal free school meals, and families haven’t been given universal Child Benefit, but benefits like the Triple Lock and the Winter Fuel Payment were given universally to pensioners. Some argue that that is unfair.

When finances are tight as they are now, I do think the means testing of pensioner benefits like the benefits in the rest of society is a clear way of clawing back some additional money, and also addressing some of the perceived imbalance in the benefits system. It also partially addresses the issue of pensions in Britain being somewhat of a ticking time bomb; with an increasing amount of pensioners and a decreasing amount of working age people to pay for pensions, the universal pensioner benefits are/were unsustainable in the long term.

I do question whether eligibility for Pension Credit is necessarily the right cutoff point, but I do think this needed to happen, and I support the Labour government’s decision overall.

 

[Matt.GC]

Actually Matt, Child Benefit used to be completely universal for working age people. The Cameron government put in a threshold that it started to be taken away if one householders income reached £80k I believe?

That on its own was blunt and unsophisticated. Both parents working could take in £159,999.99 and still get it. As child benefit is only paid to one of the parents, I also believe there is no process at the inland revenue to know if, say the father earnt over £80k but child benefit got paid to the mother who didn't. I think it has to be self reported, and would technically be benefit fraud if you didn't. I've never reached £80k, but my other half has never had anything to do with my children's child benefit since they were born. It's just been paid to her regardless, and would assume would start being deducted if she earnt more than the threshold herself personally. But I completely understand why it was implemented that way. It's because it was simple and did mean that more wealthy people lost a benefit they clearly didn't need.

I believe, but not 100% sure, that expectant mothers and mothers in maternity leave still get free prescriptions and dental care universally regardless of income. However it could be argued that is more health related.

 

[GaryH]

I don't see what having money in savings to hand down, or "working all their lives" has anything to do with it. This is where I find the contradiction. As soon as I hear that phrase, I immediately think of entitled attitudes. You have means or you don't?

You are poor or you're not. You need £300 from the government or you don't. It's not a reward for being a certain age and "working all you life". I've worked consistently for 26 years, have small savings, I live in a valuable asset. If I lost my job tomorrow, they'd laugh me out of the Job Centre if I put a Universal Credit claim in. And rightly so, because I'm not poor.

Ahh right, so you’re saying they should use up their savings, or sell their valuable assets to pay for the heating bills. And it matters because the amount a pensioner has in savings affects how eligible they are for pension credits and thus heating allowance.


Matt, no disrespect to you, but you do seem to view things with a very black or white attitude.l and with little compassion. There are so many variables involved in all these situations and I think perhaps when you reach the age where you do start thinking of retiring, or leaving money to grandchildren or your own children, including the nice house you have rather than give it to the government, then you will only then I think start to appreciate the situation many now find themselves in.

 

[Benzin]

Expectant and post birth for a year get free prescriptions.

Saved her a lot of money for those 2 odd years.

 

[Matt N]

Actually Matt, Child Benefit used to be completely universal for working age people. The Cameron government put in a threshold that it started to be taken away if one householders income reached £80k I believe?

That on its own was blunt and unsophisticated. Both parents working could take in £159,999.99 and still get it. As child benefit is only paid to one of the parents, I also believe there is no process at the inland revenue to know if, say the father earnt over £80k but child benefit got paid to the mother who didn't. I think it has to be self reported, and would technically be benefit fraud if you didn't. I've never reached £80k, but my other half has never had anything to do with my children's child benefit since they were born. It's just been paid to her regardless, and would assume would start being deducted if she earnt more than the threshold herself personally. But I completely understand why it was implemented that way. It's because it was simple and did mean that more wealthy people lost a benefit they clearly didn't need.

I believe, but not 100% sure, that expectant mothers and mothers in maternity leave still get free prescriptions and dental care universally regardless of income. However it could be argued that is more health related.

Ah, I didn’t know that; my knowledge of Child Benefit came from the fact that my parents apparently looked into claiming it when my sister and I were young, but never did because my dad earned over the threshold…

 

[jon81uk]

Ahh right, so you’re saying they should use up their savings, or sell their valuable assets to pay for the heating bills. And it matters because the amount a pensioner has in savings affects how eligible they are for pension credits and thus heating allowance.

Thats kind of how a pension works, you save up money to pay for your retirement when no longer working.

 

[Alix]

@Matt N The child benefit rules only changed in 2013, and from memory I think you're older than 11, so your parents missed out on a few years at least of "free" money. The tapering started to hit at £50K, and disappeared completely when you earn £60K but I think that's now been changed to £60k and £80k. The threshold seems to change annually though - and you have to do a self assessment tax return when you approach the magic number so they can recoup the following year what they've paid you over the previous year if you've gone over the bracket. It is always worth claiming though - for reasons I can't remember but something to do with National Insurance.

As I understand it, Universal Credit is much more agile to react to changes in earnings - so I'm not sure why Child Benefit is so flipping complicated. But also, if they can taper child benefit, why can't they taper the winter fuel allowance? This would avoid the cliff edge that so many are concerned about.

 

[GaryH]

Thats kind of how a pension works, you save up money to pay for your retirement when no longer working.

Yes in a savings pot called a pension which you put money into every day you work. Your savings are separate to this. And those with large valuable houses may choose to downsize later in life and invest the money for their kids/grandkids.