UK Politics General Discussion

[jon81uk]

Farmers are literally saying they will go out of business, are you saying they are all liars? There was a guy on TV earlier his farm is worth 7 million roughly. Sounds alot but they have not made profit for the last 3 years.

Then they need to sell their product for a higher price, or diversify the business to make money. That's nothing to do with paying tax on your assets when you die.

What if the land they owned was a loss-making theme park? Or a stately home?

 

[rob666]

Farmers are literally saying they will go out of business,

I am literally saying that very few will...
We all live by the same rules.
Even the land owning people.
Tenant farmers don't seem to be complaining.

Discussing this with my mid morning punter, as middle of the road as they come.
He knows dozens of farmers locally, but he doesn't know a poor one.
He also thinks Clarkson is a wise fool ducking his taxes, and we should all be in the same boat.
I agree.
Landowners should not be a special case.

 

[Benzin]

How would inheritance tax affect current farming when the example's family would only have to pay the approx £1.4m after their death. If they don't change the deed to said land 7 years prior to their passing in the first place. And that's assuming the value of the land doesn't change as well.

Don't tax 4x4s and fertiliser then the complaints of weather making things harder to farm will get more and more. Cos climate change.

The country's money pit has to be filled up somehow. And the asset rich are kicking up a fuss because it's them being picked on for once. Maybe supermarkets should be forced to work far more closely with farms and offer appropriate value for their work if the problem is a lack of profit. But then industry generally has that issue regardless of what you are producing. And usually if you're not making a profit you tend to change how your company operates, streamline it (depending on situation) or sell up and put your feet up.

 

[Dave]

Farmers are literally saying they will go out of business, are you saying they are all liars? There was a guy on TV earlier his farm is worth 7 million roughly. Sounds alot but they have not made profit for the last 3 years. The inheritance tax would send them under. Add in taxes on 4x4s and fertilizer tax why the hell would anyone do this job. Long hours, minimal profit, poor mental health, left think your a bunch of grifters and everyone else seems quite happy to have most of our food imported.

There are also small farmers saying this will benefit them (example: https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/24714397.opinion-inheritance-tax-changes-positive-farms/

Fact is the ones screaming are mostly the tax avoiders. I’m certain there may be the odd farm not tax avoiding that might get a small tax bill to pay over 10 years but I doubt it will be significant.

Fact is last year 40% of farms purchased where bought by investors, not farmers, to avoid tax. So this land isn’t producing food anyway, if anything this will stop land being soaked up as tax assets and actually used for farming.

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

In similar news, few retailers are kicking up a fuss about the tax rises. Ironic for Amazon especially. But again, given their profits are in the millions, the sympathy for the companies is very much lacking. Oh no it'll have to be a profit of £2.5m p/a rather than £3m, won't someone please think of the shareholders.

It's worth noting that Amazon doesn't make a profit on shopping. They do make a profit on Marketplace, which is other people selling via them (so no real impact there). Primarily, Amazon's profit centre is Amazon Web Services, which powers pretty much the entire internet.

 

[Matt.GC]

We want a thriving British farming industry, we want food farmed responsibly, we want high food standards, we want a shop local to us to sell it to the exact specification we want it in, and we want to pay bargain basement prices for it.

We also want affordable homes, but want our own homes to increase in value, and we don't want these homes to be built near us.

We want good public services, but we don't want to pay high taxes for them, and we don't want to government to borrow any more money.

I have my concerns about some of the ways the government has handled a few things since coming to power a mere few months ago. But it's clear that misinformation is rife, and when you look at the opinions of some, you'd be forgiven for thinking that this is somehow comparable to how the Tories limped on in their last few years of power.

Like the winter fuel voting bribe removal and luxury purchase VAT being levied on private education, it seems like the better off's complaints are clearly being heard loud and clear, and are now being championed by those who've been influenced by the newspaper/social media hullabaloo. Any time I've challenged anyone on the above issues with facts beyond the hype, the subject is either changed, or something that sounds like a Daily Mail opinion column is spouted.

There's nuclear powers at war in the middle east, a nuclear power at war in Europe with another European neighbour and showing it's teeth to us. UK debt to GDP is 92%, there was a large deficit of £22bn in this financial year. The economy has been flatlining for decades and is predicted to do so for some time, whilst productivity remains flat, at a time when this country has turned it's back on its closest trading partners and has few trade deals with others. 1 in 3 children now live in relative poverty, the health service is in crisis, homelessness is increasing. Weather and climate is getting worse, there's a massive asylum processing backlog with thousands of asylum seekers warehoused in hotels, and prisons are so full we're letting criminals out early. A madman fascist democracy denier has just been elected to the Whitehouse, whilst populists are gaining more power here and all over Europe.

But won't someone spare a thought for the 20% Inheritance Tax that land owners descendants will have to pay on assets worth more than £3m.

 

[Quantum]

If a farm has to pay 60k a year inheritance tax many will simply go out of business. Many farms don't make that much in a year it's basic economics. They will sell the farm to some big multinational and the land will never be used for farming again, it's a land grab. The London elite don't care about rural areas or their community's. Starmer promised the farmers before the election he would not put up taxes, which he has lied.

The government has managed to cough up billions for Ed Millibands Carbon Capture and wind farm fetish.

 

[Matt.GC]

If a farm has to pay 60k a year inheritance tax many will simply go out of business. Many farms don't make that much in a year it's basic economics. They will sell the farm to some big multinational and the land will never be used for farming again, it's a land grab. The London elite don't care about rural areas or their community's. Starmer promised the farmers before the election he would not put up taxes, which he has lied.

I get the feeling that it doesn't matter what anyone says at this stage. You've drank the Koolade. You're clearly not reading a single response, and continuing to directly link day to day farming issues with inheritance tax on inherited assets without a single evidence based rebuttal to any points raised. There's no explanation, just a repetition of your original points. So then you reached for:

The government has managed to cough up billions for Ed Millibands Carbon Capture and wind farm fetish.

Now, normally when this happens, the immigration, "Woke", or "charity begins at home" card is reached for. But you get some originality points for pressing the climate change denial button instead I suppose.

 

[Benzin]

That's if they don't use the still existing exemptions and what-not in the next 18 months until it gets bought in officially. And presuming the owner also dies. Since that's usually when inheritance tax comes into play.

Clarkson also has had to backpedal heavily saying his original "I bought land to avoid inheritance tax" is being referred to.

And yes, carbon capture and wind farms, we could do with having our own energy creation and not be reliant on foreign companies like EDF to run our power stations. Maybe they could lease the land that they own for the government to build renewable sites on as a little bonus. Definitely a few doing that at the moment.

I think the "London elites" line says it all though.

 

[Dave]

If a farm has to pay 60k a year inheritance tax many will simply go out of business. Many farms don't make that much in a year it's basic economics. They will sell the farm to some big multinational and the land will never be used for farming again, it's a land grab. The London elite don't care about rural areas or their community's. Starmer promised the farmers before the election he would not put up taxes, which he has lied.

The government has managed to cough up billions for Ed Millibands Carbon Capture and wind farm fetish.

For a farm to have £600,000.00 IHT bill it would have to be huge (around £10,000,000 to £12,000,000)

You do get only the value above the threshold is taxed, not the whole amount?

 

[Quantum]

For a farm to have £600,000.00 IHT bill it would have to be huge (around £10,000,000 to £12,000,000)

You do get only the value above the threshold is taxed, not the whole amount?

Let's say it's 20k then on a farm values at 5 million. Where is that money coming from?

If a farmer has to sell his farm who is buying it?

How does this not lead to food inflation?

If you want to target people buying land as an investment or for inheritance tax then design the rules around that. Don't hit family farms with a ham fisted tax that will lead to more corporations owing land.

 

[rob666]

It is not a ham fisted tax.
It is a universal, progressive tax...only collected from the estates of people who are (1) rich, and (2) already dead.
We have all explained a dozen times that it is a fair tax, for all.
Nobody pays 60k a year in iht...it simply doesn't work like that, unless someone is inheriting fresh money of a specific amount each year.
Which they don't.

 

[Benzin]

This feels like the Americans who suddenly discovered what the definition of tariffs is post election.

 

[Dave]

This feels like the Americans who suddenly discovered what the definition of tariffs is post election.

Some Americans seem to have at least made the connection.

The fact so many brits are wringing their hands over millionaires paying a small amount of tax is laughable.

 

[Matt.GC]

I take comfort from the fact that on today's protests were the following people:

Jeremy Clarkson. A violent, entitled, prejudiced oaf, extremely wealthy, who has bragged about buying a farm to dodge paying tax on his millions.

Ed Davey. The leader of a party of that flip flops between who they try and appease just to get some votes (Labour supporters, Tories, they're not fussed). Currently heavily reliant on rural votes to maintain their current MP's.

Kemi Badenock. The leader of the party that represents the rich and arrogant.

Establishment career politician, mainstream media personality elite, and former investment banker millionaire playboy Nigel Farage. The wealthy leader of the party/Ltd company that represents both the rich and ignorant. Also best pals with a racist rapist billionaire facist who tried to hold on to power after loosing a democratic election by instigating a violent attempted coup.

A Labour policy that upsets these lot must be good!

 

[Quantum]

I'm checking out of this echo chamber for now. I never realised there was such seething hatred for farmers and a lack of understanding on how it will send many farms under.
This country is screwed

 

[Squiggs]

Nobody pays 60k a year in iht...it simply doesn't work like that, unless someone is inheriting fresh money of a specific amount each year.
Which they don't.

I think this line of discussion is related specifically to the proposed changes to farm inheritance, which sounds like it won't work like normal inheritance tax.

From my understanding, if a farmer is affected by these changes, they would have 10 years to pay the tax bill. So I think the assumption (or possibly stated mechanic) is that if you have a £600k inheritance tax bill, in this circumstance, you would instead be paying £60k a year. So essentially even landowners who are impacted by this change have the tax burden somewhat softened.

Presumably this is to allow the produce from the land to pay for the tax over a longer period, rather than requiring a large one-off bill, which would more likely require land to be sold (as would be the case for other land usages).

At least that's my understanding about what is being reported, so I'm possibly misunderstanding.

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

I'm checking out of this echo chamber for now. I never realised there was such seething hatred for farmers and a lack of understanding on how it will send many farms under.
This country is screwed

I'm sorry that you feel pushed away, I really don't think that was the intention of any of the people replying here to you. I genuinely believe that they were replying in good faith and that tensions have risen slightly.

There isn't a hatred for farmers, but I think a break down in communication, which isn't helped by the footballisation of our politics.

I hope when enough time has passed you feel welcome enough again to come here and discuss civilly.

Just on this point though, if I may:

If a farm has to pay 60k a year inheritance tax

Inheritance tax is a one off tax. You pay it once, on the amount over the cap, against the amount you've inherited.

If someone is inheriting estates every year, and end up with an annually occuring tax bill, we probably ought to refer them to the NCA. It would suggest that they're bumping off their relatives, or friends, every year to get at their inheritance.

 

[GaryH]

50,000 extra pensioners to be pushed into fuel poverty. Absolute disgrace.

Winter fuel cut to put 50,000 pensioners into relative poverty

Government estimates reveal the impact of cuts to the winter fuel allowance, announced earlier this year.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Matt.GC]

50,000 extra pensioners to be pushed into fuel poverty. Absolute disgrace.

Winter fuel cut to put 50,000 pensioners into relative poverty

Government estimates reveal the impact of cuts to the winter fuel allowance, announced earlier this year.

www.bbc.co.uk

However, for balance, that very article also states the following:

In a letter clarifying the figures, Work and Pensions Secretary Liz Kendall said the estimates did not take into account any increased take-up of pension credit.

I'm not saying that this won't have an impact on anyone at all, but it's clear that this figure is completely useless. After that statement, we're still none the wiser of how many people this really affects. And again, I would say that's more of a case for pension credit threshold reform rather than giving out free money willy nilly.