Virgin Trains lose West Coast Franchise

[Sam]

Since when are you a supporter of capitalism, Sam? Money should not come in to it at all. It should be about providing the best service possible, not who can slip the government the biggest bribe.

Bring back BR tbh.

This is a complete misrepresentation of the process.

Them paying the government isn't a 'bribe'. Part of the idea is that the franchised train companies pay for the rights to make a profit on the infrastructure that's been paid for by the taxpayer. First want to give the government more money than Virgin, this should be a win for all of us as taxpayers. More money in the public pot.

If money wasn't involved, and we just let whoever would provide the best service run their trains on the network, and make profit for themselves, the companies would be getting an easy ride. They'd be making huge profits on the track that's been paid for by the nation. The companies must repay us for the money we've put into the network!

By the way, this is all within the logic of the current system. You're right Diogo, I think British Rail should be brought back and trains re-nationalised. Even though I believe that, I still think that while we have the current privatised system, the government should give the contract to the company providing best value for the taxpayer. It's the lesser of two evils. I'm against the system as a whole, but if we have it, it might as well be functioning as best it possibly can.

 

[QTXAdsy]

Since when are you a supporter of capitalism, Sam? Money should not come in to it at all. It should be about providing the best service possible, not who can slip the government the biggest bribe.

Bring back BR tbh.

And the old BR catchpharse was 'We're getting there...'

...Yeah. :

 

[Poisson]

BR would work if it was actually run properly...........

 

[Rose Of Dawn]

Normally, I couldn't care less about trains. I certainly don't know much other than there's normal trains and high speed trains. But I love the Virgin service to London, as it only takes two hours to get from Chester to Euston, on a comfy train with lovely staff. I'm really going to miss Virgin Trains.

 

[delta79]

 

[Craig]

This is a complete misrepresentation of the process.

Them paying the government isn't a 'bribe'. Part of the idea is that the franchised train companies pay for the rights to make a profit on the infrastructure that's been paid for by the taxpayer. First want to give the government more money than Virgin, this should be a win for all of us as taxpayers. More money in the public pot.

In an ideal world, this sounds great. But, having seen the mess that was left by National Express with the East Coast Mainline, the current process is flawed. We've seen the ECML sold to the highest bidder to National Express East Coast, who inherited the line when GNER had their contract revoked. They inherited a line which, for the most part had ridiculously high ticket prices, and falling passenger numbers. There were fears they had overpaid, and sure enough they were handing back the franchise into government ownership. We're now left with a line which has stagnated, simply trundling along with no realistic prospect of any real innovation on it in the next few years.

If money wasn't involved, and we just let whoever would provide the best service run their trains on the network, and make profit for themselves, the companies would be getting an easy ride. They'd be making huge profits on the track that's been paid for by the nation. The companies must repay us for the money we've put into the network!

By the way, this is all within the logic of the current system. You're right Diogo, I think British Rail should be brought back and trains re-nationalised. Even though I believe that, I still think that while we have the current privatised system, the government should give the contract to the company providing best value for the taxpayer. It's the lesser of two evils. I'm against the system as a whole, but if we have it, it might as well be functioning as best it possibly can.

Quantity (ie the amount of cash) does not necessarily equal the best value - taxpayers are the line's customers too. There should be more consideration given for the service provided to customers not just for the cash in the bank. I know there has been more consideration for this with First Great Western in terms of investment in infrastructure, but lessons should have been learned from the whole ECML fiasco which doesn't seem to be the case. It seems to government has yet again jumped at the sight of pounds in the bank account rather than seriously looking at the long term feasibility of paying so much to run the line.

I would love to be able to take the train more, but when it costs double (sometimes 4 times!) the amount of me travelling in my car on my own, there's no incentive to do so. There needs to be a massive overhaul in public transport if this government really wants to reduce those cars on the road.

 

[thefatone]

First won by tendering a ridiculous amount more than Virgin - this will only lead to increased fares and reduced staffing, it's literally the only way they'll be able to earn the revenue to pay it off.

Only really used FGW and Capital Connect, and both of them are dire. Use virgin quite often, and almost always find it to be a pleasurable experience (times when not are when there's football matches and a billion people get on one train).

First are a boring bland brand, with no sense of realism and no care for customer service. The named trains and the wonderful branding will be stripped, and we'll have the generic vinyl added to the pendolinos. First are awful, and we'll start noticing it once they've settled in.

 

[Sam]

First are a boring bland brand, with no sense of realism and no care for customer service. The named trains and the wonderful branding will be stripped, and we'll have the generic vinyl added to the pendolinos. First are awful, and we'll start noticing it once they've settled in.

Craig's objections seem genuine, and the system does seem flawed. But your objections are basically what I mentioned a few posts back - apparently First are "awful" because they're a "boring bland brand". I'm glad what the trains are called and the colour scheme is so important to you. First have "no sense of realism", what does that even mean? I didn't know First were an existentialist train company...

 

[Cariba]

Even as a "capitalist" I think the railways should be re-nationalised, or at least have a far higher degree of scrutiny. While I haven't used Virgin or First, National Express East Anglia were awful and rightfully had the franchise stripped from them.
For a real train firm, observe London Overground.

 

[DiogoJ42]

I'm a firm believer in "ain't broke, don't fix." While obviously we would be better off with a nationalised train service, if we can't have that, why kick out the best TOC we have simply because the contract expired? Virgin did a good job running the ECML, and I find it hard to believe that anyone, least of all First, can match that standard.

 

[CoasterCrazyChris]

First are pretty awful tbh. They run all the services down here in the South West (bus and rail) and the fares are ridiculous, rarely on time and trains are dirty and shabby.

The last thing we need is a larger monopoly.

 

[Poisson]

Re: Virgin Trains lose West Coast Franchise

We have seven hills in Sheffield so First send all the old buses here to die. Therefore from my expiriences of these I am so glad I use the East Midlands Trains controlled Midland Mainline. First will ruin the WCML. Most First staff are grumpy and customer service is not on their minds at all.

Sent from my GT-S5830 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Sam]

We have seven hills in Sheffield so First send all the old buses here to die. Therefore from my expiriences of these I am so glad I use the East Midlands Trains controlled Midland Mainline.

Yeah, First are so awful. I hate having to pay 50p (student price) to get on a bus in Sheffield. :

 

[Poisson]

Re: Virgin Trains lose West Coast Franchise

Not like First control that fare is it?

Sent from my GT-S5830 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Rupert]

I don't have time to fully wade into this now but it's worth pointing out that under this current ludicrous system:

The subsidy for the current franchise system is in real terms (i.e. adjusted for inflation) four times that of the subsidy for British Rail. Source

So the system that was badly introduced by the Conservative government of 1994 in fact costs us four times as much as the nationalised service did. Clearly there are a number of factors that muddy the water, but entirely in economic terms the current franchise system has been a disaster for the tax payer. The default of National Express on the East Coast Main Line, or First's deciding to avoid paying £826million on the Great Western Main Line, only to be shortlisted to run the franchise again (source), is testament to that.

I can't for the life of me understand why the UK government doesn't have a stake in any of the private companies bidding or operating franchises. For example, First TransPennine Express is 45% owned by Keolis, a company majority owned by the French state-owned national rail company SNCF. Transport giant Arriva (who incidentally own CrossCountry) is completely owned by the German state-owned rail company Deutsche Bahn. I accept that our government appears to be completely inept at running anything, but a 49% or less stake in a private company could only be beneficial.

Another colossal flaw is that neither the government nor the train operating companies that operate the franchises own the rolling stock - the trains are all owned by Rolling Stock Operating Companies, of which there are three major ones in the UK, owned by major banks. One used to be named HSBC Rail but presumably saw the PR issues associated with the bank. These companies make huge sums of money. Click here to learn how the government sold HSBC Rail for a sum £200million under its market value. Good one.

So, to recap, there are a few minor flaws with the current system:

• The government subsidy to the rail industry is four times what it was when it was nationalised.
• There don't appear to be any safeguards to stop the franchise operators jumping ship with their money when things aren't going well.
• The government somehow managed to avoid getting a stake in any of the franchise operators, despite being able to at no cost (following initial privatisation) and despite other state-owned operators successfully and profitably operating our railways.
• The track, the trains and the franchises are all separately owned and operated by different companies, and the government sold them for far less than they were worth.
• The franchise system does little to encourage long-term investment, given that by the time any investments begin to make return the franchise expires.
• The rail system completely rapes passengers, offering them terrible service at the most expensive prices in Europe.

Really, I don't think the debate should be whether First have worse staff or Virgin have cool trains (they didn't even own them or decide to introduce the joke Pendolinos) - the question should be why the franchise system is still in place and all three major parties still support it. Again, focussing on economic terms, which is what this all comes down to, the only reason to support Branson is that I share his worry that First's wildly high bid is unsustainable and they simply won't be able to afford their payments to the government, thus defaulting à la National Express.

 

[pluk]

There is basically no reward for doing well for the customer and providing a solid service that the passenger appreciate

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-17489172

There is nothing in the system to encourage a good service, just a bunch of 'manageable' statistics and financial targets. The passenger does not matter in the slightest.

I have the same problem with all privatisation and most government/council outsourcing. You simply can not make a service cheaper to provide by building in a profit for someone along the line, let alone lots of people at each stage along the line. That's why what is happening with the NHS and police at the moment depresses me, these things are too important and the money spent on them should all go directly to delivering the service. Not a companies shareholders.

 

[delta79]

pluk, Dont get me started on outsourcing of police support areas. private company profit in any public service to me is tantamount to robbery.

As for rail, Rupert has said it. The current system is rubbish. and in my option is only there to help the troy mates fill their boots!!!!

 

[Blizzard]

Virgin have starrted a petition!

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/37180

 

[Sam]

Not like First control that fare is it?

You're absolutely right now I think about it, apologies for that little error. But the bus service First provide in Sheffield is very good all-round - I never have to wait more than two minutes (literally) for a bus going up Eccy Road during the day. They're very frequent, like the trams in Strasbourg.

Virgin have starrted a petition!

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/37180

Maybe I've missed something, but I can't see anywhere that Virgin, or anyone working for Virgin, has started that petition? Looks like just a random member of the public. As I said, I might have missed something.

 

[Blizzard]

Not like First control that fare is it?

You're absolutely right now I think about it, apologies for that little error. But the bus service First provide in Sheffield is very good all-round - I never have to wait more than two minutes (literally) for a bus going up Eccy Road during the day. They're very frequent, like the trams in Strasbourg.

Virgin have starrted a petition!

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/37180

Maybe I've missed something, but I can't see anywhere that Virgin, or anyone working for Virgin, has started that petition? Looks like just a random member of the public. As I said, I might have missed something.

Look on the virgin trains homepage!