CoasterCrazyChris
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Nemesis
Blaze said:
It makes the area all about The Smiler with "get corrected" and "joy" which has no relevance to Oblivion, which is also a major part of the area.
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X-Sector Developments (Including Oblivion)
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It makes the area all about The Smiler with "get corrected" and "joy" which has no relevance to Oblivion, which is also a major part of the area.
Andrew
TS Contributor
That's the original sign...
Nothing has changed apart from The Ministry of Joy taking the place of Alton Towers pretty much, which gives the area more of a theme!
There wasn't even a reference to Oblivion in the first place or any other ride in the area so I don't see why people are complaining!
Towers could've left those signs but they've made them fit! Well done I say!
CoasterCrazyChris
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Nemesis
Blaze said:
But this naff and rather pretentious backstory ruins the whole point of X-Sector. The unknown factor is what made it great.
Look i'm not hating on The Smiler, its the best ting since Nemesis, but I despise it when they try and bulldoze the theme of a new ride over an existing area with an already great concept.
Martin
TS Member
It's a theme park. It's supposed to be pretentious. What isn't pretentious about building a giant fibreglass alien and turning all the water red?
They haven't bulldozed anything, it's hardly a massive change. Either the MOJ were there all along but didn't explicitly say so, or like the thing in Mutiny Bay said a couple years ago, the MOJ have taken over operations.
Everything is exactly the same, apart from the three words 'Ministry Of Joy'. I'd understand if there were smiles everywhere and everything was yellow, but that's not what's happened.
And surely this is better than doing an Air and just having it completely separate with no explanation?
They haven't bulldozed anything, it's hardly a massive change. Either the MOJ were there all along but didn't explicitly say so, or like the thing in Mutiny Bay said a couple years ago, the MOJ have taken over operations.
Everything is exactly the same, apart from the three words 'Ministry Of Joy'. I'd understand if there were smiles everywhere and everything was yellow, but that's not what's happened.
And surely this is better than doing an Air and just having it completely separate with no explanation?
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electricBlll
Could I add comical music, multi-coloured staircases, tasteless costumes and some very cheap aesthetics to the list?
X Sector was never such a strong theme in the first place, so I expect most people to not care about what's happened to it. When you delve deeper, you realise the concept is absolutely brilliant, but it's so subtle and clever that it took me until very recently to get the hints. The problem is, what was built in 1998 didn't quite have the substance and effect of they intended, in my opinion.
(Obviously I wasn't there in 98, but comparing the early concept art to the finished product shows that significant compromises were made. Plus it doesn't help that most of the bigger clues no longer exist)
Trying to convince me that the Ministry of Joy owned X Sector all along isn't going to work. It's just a stupid excuse. The MOJ is tonally quite different and more caricatured than the stylish enigma of the original unnamed X Sector organisation. Plus "revealing" the identity of X Sector goes against the whole point. It's like some overambitious young writer "revealing" that the lead character in Doctor Who is actually called Bob Smith, or something.
Oblivion is a great idea that has been mostly undermined - I'm sure the theme is totally forgettable in the eyes of the public, which is a shame. By contrast, The Smiler is so brash, attention-grabbing and exaggerated that it makes a joke of what Oblivion was all about. Now, I'm sure The Smiler and Oblivion could co-exist, but changing the wording of a sign (which, as has been pointed out, nobody reads anyway) is a rubbish way of doing this.
If they had put effort into redesigning the entire area to match the MOJ, it would be feel so much more complete than the half/half situation we've got now. However, personally I'm glad they changed their minds and kept most of X Sector going instead.
I could go on and on. I love Oblivion, it just needs its character back. I still think it is more intelligent, more unique and more thrilling than The Smiler in concept, but I imagine it's totally overshadowed now.
X Sector was never such a strong theme in the first place, so I expect most people to not care about what's happened to it. When you delve deeper, you realise the concept is absolutely brilliant, but it's so subtle and clever that it took me until very recently to get the hints. The problem is, what was built in 1998 didn't quite have the substance and effect of they intended, in my opinion.
(Obviously I wasn't there in 98, but comparing the early concept art to the finished product shows that significant compromises were made. Plus it doesn't help that most of the bigger clues no longer exist)
Trying to convince me that the Ministry of Joy owned X Sector all along isn't going to work. It's just a stupid excuse. The MOJ is tonally quite different and more caricatured than the stylish enigma of the original unnamed X Sector organisation. Plus "revealing" the identity of X Sector goes against the whole point. It's like some overambitious young writer "revealing" that the lead character in Doctor Who is actually called Bob Smith, or something.
Oblivion is a great idea that has been mostly undermined - I'm sure the theme is totally forgettable in the eyes of the public, which is a shame. By contrast, The Smiler is so brash, attention-grabbing and exaggerated that it makes a joke of what Oblivion was all about. Now, I'm sure The Smiler and Oblivion could co-exist, but changing the wording of a sign (which, as has been pointed out, nobody reads anyway) is a rubbish way of doing this.
If they had put effort into redesigning the entire area to match the MOJ, it would be feel so much more complete than the half/half situation we've got now. However, personally I'm glad they changed their minds and kept most of X Sector going instead.
I could go on and on. I love Oblivion, it just needs its character back. I still think it is more intelligent, more unique and more thrilling than The Smiler in concept, but I imagine it's totally overshadowed now.
John
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Steel Vengeance
I'm sorry, but the idea that the Smiler in any way clashes with or undermines the theme of Oblivion is absolutely ridiculous. X Sector is the only area of the park with more than 1 coaster that has any sort of cohesive theme across all the rides present, and the area as a whole (Air's theme clash is entirely ignored by the park, and Rita makes no sense in the context of the Dark Forest).
We now have a name for those behind Oblivion/X Sector. That's literally all that's changed.
We now have a name for those behind Oblivion/X Sector. That's literally all that's changed.
CoasterCrazyChris
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Nemesis
Honestly, electricBill, if I ever were to run a theme park you'd be the first person I'd employ to work in the creative department. At first it appears like you over analyse the theme park experience, but actually you get it completely and can express things in a way I never could.
See I was there in '98, I was only very young but the whole thing left a lasting impression. After seeing the area decline year on year, this is like the nail in the coffin for the original theme.
Yes, nothing stays the same and change must happen, but it is always sad when a theme concept that is being introduced is inferior to the one it replaces. Which in my opinion is what is happening here.
See I was there in '98, I was only very young but the whole thing left a lasting impression. After seeing the area decline year on year, this is like the nail in the coffin for the original theme.
Yes, nothing stays the same and change must happen, but it is always sad when a theme concept that is being introduced is inferior to the one it replaces. Which in my opinion is what is happening here.
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electricBlll
It's like somebody remixing a 40 year old album, while making a few revisions along the way. Of course it's going to be jarring and annoying for the fans, but not everybody will be able to hear the difference.
But then again, the area has been undermined to a degree pretty much since it opened. For example, Oblivion's equivalent to The Marmaliser was the Rehydrator. It was originally planned to look like this:
Bold, spacious, stylish, expensive-looking. Plus the sneaky "view into the tunnel" is a great idea. Every now and then, the 2 minute "Crisis Transmission" video would play, which suggests that ride cars go missing underground. Is Oblivion a machine designed to obliterate matter? Are human being being forcibly used as lab rats? Is Oblivion a secret weapon?
But what they eventually built was this:
A rather small, bland and sponsorship-heavy drinks shop, which apparently nobody ever used anyway. Still, it had some cool lighting effects (not visible in this photo). They later worsened it by gutting out the building completely. Now the Rehydrator is just a weird-looking hot dog stall.
Anyway, I'm not saying The Smiler clashes with Oblivion exactly, since there was an obvious decision to keep The Smiler's brand similar to Oblivion's, which I really appreciate. But I don't know why people are falling for the "Ministry of Joy owned X Sector all along" line, it's the same kind of "Thirteen was discovered underneath Corkscrew" rubbish. Not that it really affects the ride experience of either rollercoaster...
But then again, the area has been undermined to a degree pretty much since it opened. For example, Oblivion's equivalent to The Marmaliser was the Rehydrator. It was originally planned to look like this:
Bold, spacious, stylish, expensive-looking. Plus the sneaky "view into the tunnel" is a great idea. Every now and then, the 2 minute "Crisis Transmission" video would play, which suggests that ride cars go missing underground. Is Oblivion a machine designed to obliterate matter? Are human being being forcibly used as lab rats? Is Oblivion a secret weapon?
But what they eventually built was this:
A rather small, bland and sponsorship-heavy drinks shop, which apparently nobody ever used anyway. Still, it had some cool lighting effects (not visible in this photo). They later worsened it by gutting out the building completely. Now the Rehydrator is just a weird-looking hot dog stall.
Anyway, I'm not saying The Smiler clashes with Oblivion exactly, since there was an obvious decision to keep The Smiler's brand similar to Oblivion's, which I really appreciate. But I don't know why people are falling for the "Ministry of Joy owned X Sector all along" line, it's the same kind of "Thirteen was discovered underneath Corkscrew" rubbish. Not that it really affects the ride experience of either rollercoaster...
Thank you! I just enjoy thinking about or drawing these rides in my spare time and trying to understand what the creators were doing. In that sense, Oblivion just keeps on giving. It's very clever, and has always been one of the more exciting, unique rollercoasters to me. At least the ride is still there to be enjoyed, and hasn't been half-bulldozed like what Rita did to Ug Land (another of my favourite areas).CoasterCrazyChris said:
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electricBlll
Congratulations on missing the entire point of my post.
And no, the finished product was extremely sponsorship heavy: large Coca-Cola logos on every wall, logos set into the concrete, logos on the exterior, logo panels on the buttresses (which still haven't been removed), bottle shapes next to the drop, giant plastic bottle models, a giant logo on the roof, etc... And almost none of the proposed features in the above drawing were built.
And that's just one example. There queue line buildings were also compromised. The Crisis video doesn't play anywhere anymore. The unique queue system was abandoned. The drop zone was reduced to just pulsing beacons and lots of concrete.
Despite all that, it's still a great area, but doesn't fulfil its purpose in my opinion. If the original theme was built with more substance, I think everybody would be enjoying Oblivion a lot more.
EDIT
And no, the finished product was extremely sponsorship heavy: large Coca-Cola logos on every wall, logos set into the concrete, logos on the exterior, logo panels on the buttresses (which still haven't been removed), bottle shapes next to the drop, giant plastic bottle models, a giant logo on the roof, etc... And almost none of the proposed features in the above drawing were built.
And that's just one example. There queue line buildings were also compromised. The Crisis video doesn't play anywhere anymore. The unique queue system was abandoned. The drop zone was reduced to just pulsing beacons and lots of concrete.
Despite all that, it's still a great area, but doesn't fulfil its purpose in my opinion. If the original theme was built with more substance, I think everybody would be enjoying Oblivion a lot more.
EDIT
He he, you did it again!Dobba said:
Dobba
TS Member
electricBlll said:
Thank you for not being patronising.
Clearly I'm confused, you've gone from being against the use of orange on pipework on the Rehydrator for the Fanta sponsorship to seemingly being pro-bringing an entirely new colour onto the Oblivion palette (red) completely on the basis of a ride/area sponsor. When I say against of course I mean putting the repaint on a level of a war crime.
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electricBlll
Clearly you are. I hate the Coca-Cola sponsorship (not that it affects my enjoyment of the ride or anything). You don't seem to have read my post?Dobba said:
And you seem to have totally missed the humour with regards to my view on the orange pipes. I don't think I would jokingly call somebody a basket case (get it!??!?!) if I treated it as "a war crime".
In fact, your posts criticising my opinion seem more frustrated than my posts criticising their choice of paint colours. So let's not be so personal, shall we?
James
TS Founding Member
This is in reply to one of Chris' posts, I've only managed to have a quick skim read of the last two pages so apologies if I have repeated anything said by others.
The mystery of X Sector is still retained in some respects. I understand that knowing the controller (Ministry of Joy) of the sector takes away the initial mystery of not knowing who or what controls the area. But on the other hand it still has a sense of mystery. Who is the Ministry of Joy? WHAT is the Ministry of Joy? Why have they created these devices? What is their real intention? Why build the devices at Alton Towers? Could it all be a part of a bigger plan?
There's still a lot of mystery surrounding X Sector and I don't think knowing the controller has that much of an impact on the theme.
Personally I believe this is the best new ride to have ever been integrated into an existing themed area at Alton Towers. Air and Rita are the best examples of how not to do it. The Smiler is a leading example of how to do it. It looks and feels very at home in X Sector. I think Merlin Studios and the teams that have worked on this project have done brilliantly on making The Smiler blend in to the area.
The mystery of X Sector is still retained in some respects. I understand that knowing the controller (Ministry of Joy) of the sector takes away the initial mystery of not knowing who or what controls the area. But on the other hand it still has a sense of mystery. Who is the Ministry of Joy? WHAT is the Ministry of Joy? Why have they created these devices? What is their real intention? Why build the devices at Alton Towers? Could it all be a part of a bigger plan?
There's still a lot of mystery surrounding X Sector and I don't think knowing the controller has that much of an impact on the theme.
Personally I believe this is the best new ride to have ever been integrated into an existing themed area at Alton Towers. Air and Rita are the best examples of how not to do it. The Smiler is a leading example of how to do it. It looks and feels very at home in X Sector. I think Merlin Studios and the teams that have worked on this project have done brilliantly on making The Smiler blend in to the area.
I think both sides of the argument here have a point and it comes down to two different ways of being successful with themeing. The first is having a detailed yet coherent single concept around which an aesthetic is developed, the second is simplifying the original concept in order to forge aesthetic coherency. The distinction between the two is apparent in the argument on whether or not The Smiler clashes.
On the one hand, it does clash. Though it takes several specific, basic visual cues from X-Sector, including the font, black track, it does have its own design. I would argue that it is easier to create a ride with a new creative design which feeds into all the marketing round the project than to create a new ride which is also tied into the old. The Smiler does this; it makes something new and insists the rest of X-Sector to mould slightly around it, arguably a shame because Oblivion had such a strong and subtle theme which could have been reinforced rather than sapped from.
On the other hand, this resourcefulness between old and new is a different kind of positive success. It isn't as subtle and as cohesive as it might have been. It is very much the same situation with Rita in the Dark Forest now. There is a sense to which the rethemeing has been very successful, a great improvement on the clash it made with Ug Land. It may not make 'sense' but gestures have been made towards it making one kind of visual sense. Merlin-sized, rather than Disney-sized or Universal-sized budgets rely more on gesture and the suggestion of themeing rather than physical themeing itself. For this reason, they are limited with what can be achieved on an intellectual level, and do very well.
On a side note before I get told off for taking it too seriously, I analyse the issue on the basis that it is an interesting discussion on the nature of themeing and the definitions it plays with between popular art and basic tourism and not because I think it is important as such. For The Smiler's sake, it's a huge success and looks great. This debate is kind of outside that and is a worthwhile one to have. I think if a forum of enthusiasts can't discuss questions in the abstract, it's a poor show.
On the one hand, it does clash. Though it takes several specific, basic visual cues from X-Sector, including the font, black track, it does have its own design. I would argue that it is easier to create a ride with a new creative design which feeds into all the marketing round the project than to create a new ride which is also tied into the old. The Smiler does this; it makes something new and insists the rest of X-Sector to mould slightly around it, arguably a shame because Oblivion had such a strong and subtle theme which could have been reinforced rather than sapped from.
On the other hand, this resourcefulness between old and new is a different kind of positive success. It isn't as subtle and as cohesive as it might have been. It is very much the same situation with Rita in the Dark Forest now. There is a sense to which the rethemeing has been very successful, a great improvement on the clash it made with Ug Land. It may not make 'sense' but gestures have been made towards it making one kind of visual sense. Merlin-sized, rather than Disney-sized or Universal-sized budgets rely more on gesture and the suggestion of themeing rather than physical themeing itself. For this reason, they are limited with what can be achieved on an intellectual level, and do very well.
On a side note before I get told off for taking it too seriously, I analyse the issue on the basis that it is an interesting discussion on the nature of themeing and the definitions it plays with between popular art and basic tourism and not because I think it is important as such. For The Smiler's sake, it's a huge success and looks great. This debate is kind of outside that and is a worthwhile one to have. I think if a forum of enthusiasts can't discuss questions in the abstract, it's a poor show.
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