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TBC: SW9 Speculation

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Benjsh said:
I don't think it makes financial sense though given we live in a country that isn't famed for its good weather.

What's the massive gap in tech on rapids rides? They can easily install new style boats to the existing ride. What else am I missing? If you're referring to those god awful drops then I don't really care. They are no more than cheap gimmicks for me. They don't make or break rapids rides. It's more about the pacing and effects that make or break a good rapids ride. Well it is to me anyway.
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Have you seen some of the newer ones? Drops are a thing yes, which are gimmicky, but then you have the sort of mini drop, which isn't like the big drops you see on these show case rapids more like a dip in the concerete channel. Place these in carefully calculated ways, designed thanks to cutting edge computer fluid simulation, and some of these new rapids rides utilise the water far more better, the speed some of these new rapids rides safely traverse sections of the trough is insane, three to four times faster than Congo, much more alike to a real rapids.
That is certainly not a gimmick. Check out Silver Dollar cities new rapids ride, the speed that traverses some of the course is insane. Really good and all safely done thanks to cutting edge computer software.

You then do have the gimmick things such as large drops, vertical lifts, literal big flume sections like a flume in a water park, whirlpools ect. But they all add up to make them state of the art, after all, state of the art means the latest technology. Gimmicks or not, they are the latest technology and techniques.

JAperson said:
I think at some point they'll renew the whole of Katanga canyon and have a similar but slightly more distinct theme and they'll market the rides as new.
As for them being world class: well they don't really need to be as we live in a country with really unpredictable weather too many clever effects would just be pointless. The thing is people don't mind getting wet on most days as they enjoy the ride. If you ask someone who doesn't like rides what they'll go on there's usually two answers: log flume and rapids. They are simply great fun for the whole family and they can re-makret them that way.
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You see also, both of you assume that a good water ride means you have to get soaked to some degree or another. It does not, at all. JAperson, world class is not measured in wetness, world class is measured in the overall experience.

With the latest technology it is very easy to not only design a ride ground up to have a specific wetness level, but also dynamically change it depending on the weather. Water is fun, it is a natural draw to humans, you dont have to get soaked in it to enjoy it.

That is what a good water ride in a mild country like ours, should strive to do well. I was not even on about a rapids ride either, more a boat flume ride.
Turntables, drops, bunny hops and going in and out of themed sections, while keeping wetness to an acceptable level, would be a big draw. A huge one.

No other rides like a well built water ride give you that same sense of special adventure, something about getting an a buoyant craft of some sort is very intriguing to humans, water rides exploit that and guess what? Wetness plays no part in that specific point. Case in point of wetness, the log flume at Alton, was a mild water ride by wetness, still drew big crowds until its final days.
 
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DistortAMG said:
orld class is not measured in wetness, world class is measured in the overall experience.
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Yes however in a water ride you need to get wet as thats what you expect. Anyway I was talking more in terms of maintain effecfts/scenery in our climate. If they could choose a setting like some of them mack water coasters do that would be a great idea. I think it would be marketable for them to do it and it saves them having to buy a whole new water ride. I still don't think it'll have anything to do with SW9 unless they decide to encourprate it into the new area (not sure where they would fit it but I'm sure they could find somewhere).

In terms of what I think SW9 will be and where it'll go personally there are a lot of options which I suspect they have explored.
Now I suspect they might try and put something in forbidden valley. Not sure what but it would probably be something new and exciting. Perhaps one of the B&M surf coasters. We don't know what they are but Merlin has bought almost every new B&M model and it is possible they are in on the project (thinking nemesis style) This apparently going to be launched so would add a lot to the line up aswell.
Another is a cross valley coaster: I think this will happen at some point however I think it would be made out of steel if built today. I'm not sure how they would get planning permission but they would probably have to trade something. I know there was talk in the spinball thread about them possibly using that as a bargaining chip so who knows.

Another options is fitting something in Katanga canyon and gloomy wood: I think John Wardley once said they had a stand up planned here so they must have come up with a way to fit something in there that would likely be accepted by the planners so something might happen there.
I think it needs to be a gimmick as thats what people expect with Alton Tpwers. They got away with it with Wicker Man only because of the Wood and Fire marketing and claim tis the world first ride to combine wood a fire. Which just sounds crazy to your average visitor.
 
DistortAMG said:
Have you seen some of the newer ones? Drops are a thing yes, which are gimmicky, but then you have the sort of mini drop, which isn't like the big drops you see on these show case rapids more like a dip in the concerete channel. Place these in carefully calculated ways, designed thanks to cutting edge computer fluid simulation, and some of these new rapids rides utilise the water far more better, the speed some of these new rapids rides safely traverse sections of the trough is insane, three to four times faster than Congo, much more alike to a real rapids.
That is certainly not a gimmick. Check out Silver Dollar cities new rapids ride, the speed that traverses some of the course is insane. Really good and all safely done thanks to cutting edge computer software.

You then do have the gimmick things such as large drops, vertical lifts, literal big flume sections like a flume in a water park, whirlpools ect. But they all add up to make them state of the art, after all, state of the art means the latest technology. Gimmicks or not, they are the latest technology and techniques.



You see also, both of you assume that a good water ride means you have to get soaked to some degree or another. It does not, at all. JAperson, world class is not measured in wetness, world class is measured in the overall experience.

With the latest technology it is very easy to not only design a ride ground up to have a specific wetness level, but also dynamically change it depending on the weather. Water is fun, it is a natural draw to humans, you dont have to get soaked in it to enjoy it.

That is what a good water ride in a mild country like ours, should strive to do well. I was not even on about a rapids ride either, more a boat flume ride.
Turntables, drops, bunny hops and going in and out of themed sections, while keeping wetness to an acceptable level, would be a big draw. A huge one.

No other rides like a well built water ride give you that same sense of special adventure, something about getting an a buoyant craft of some sort is very intriguing to humans, water rides exploit that and guess what? Wetness plays no part in that specific point. Case in point of wetness, the log flume at Alton, was a mild water ride by wetness, still drew big crowds until its final days.
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Newer doesn't always mean better. Energylandia are building a new mine train coaster. I would bet my life it won't be anywhere near as good as BTM. Yet that new one has all the benefits of newer coaster tech doesn't it?

The rapids at Towers always had decent pacing and a good long layout. The thing that lets it down isn't the lack of newer technology. It's the effects either being turned off or broken. If it was cleaned up, painted in places, new scenery added, the odd new effect added and maybe some new boats and audio it would feel like a brand new ride anyway.
 
Benjsh said:
Newer doesn't always mean better. Energylandia are building a new mine train coaster. I would bet my life it won't be anywhere near as good as BTM. Yet that new one has all the benefits of newer coaster tech doesn't it?

The rapids at Towers always had decent pacing and a good long layout. The thing that lets it down isn't the lack of newer technology. It's the effects either being turned off or broken. If it was cleaned up, painted in places, new scenery added, the odd new effect added and maybe some new boats and audio it would feel like a brand new ride anyway.
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But these new Rapids are clearly a step above the old types. Congo is great yea, but go and have a ride on some of these new ones rather than watching videos, then see if your oppinion changes. As the videos do them no justice. Out of curiosity, how many of these new rapid rides have you ridden? As you need to ride a good few to get a good idea as they can vary so much from ride to ride. Like all things in life, videos do not do them justice.

Besides, my original comments were not about replacing the rapids anyway. It was about a replacement to fill the void left by the log flume.

That example of the mine train is a terrible one. What new tech is it using exactly? Drop tracks? Switch tracks? Launches? It's basically just a traditional rollercoaster with lift hills. Same as what we have used for decades, no special elements. The only new tech would be new sensors and computers, but to do a job the same as has been done for 40 years, so I wouldnt class that as new tech as it makes the ride do nothing new. There is nothing unique or special about it. A bog standard mine train.
 
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This might have been mentioned before but the area behind Duel/ Katanga Canyon, is this an area that could be developed? It’s currently used as storage/ car park. The path from the car parks to the entrance goes through it - would be a great hint for those entering the park on foot and driving past.
 
Raza said:
This might have been mentioned before but the area behind Duel/ Katanga Canyon, is this an area that could be developed? It’s currently used as storage/ car park. The path from the car parks to the entrance goes through it - would be a great hint for those entering the park on foot and driving past.
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I'm not 100% sure about planning but I think they can use this area. Wasn''t there plans for a stand up there at one point before the smiler so towers/merlin must have thought it possible to get permission here but maybe there was a trade off needed?
 
JAperson said:
I'm not 100% sure about planning but I think they can use this area. Wasn''t there plans for a stand up there at one point before the smiler so towers/merlin must have thought it possible to get permission here but maybe there was a trade off needed?
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Yes, I’m pretty sure something had been mentioned along these lines. Didn’t know a stand-up was on the table though - sheesh.

I reckon a family launched would work well here - perhaps get rid of spinball & go for a Mack spin. Hard sell but would work I think.
 
Raza said:
Yes, I’m pretty sure something had been mentioned along these lines. Didn’t know a stand-up was on the table though - sheesh.

I reckon a family launched would work well here - perhaps get rid of spinball & go for a Mack spin. Hard sell but would work I think.
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If they wanted a Mack launch that would sell well they could always get one of them extreme ones. 'Worlds tallest, faster, longest and loopiest' spinning coaster sounds pretty good to me.
There was also a vekoma boost bike planned with broom sticks instead of motorbikes. However I personally hope the next SW will be thrill. The SW's allow alton towers to toe the line between family and thrill as the alternate. Th13teen then smiler. Smiler then wicker man it makes sense to me to contiue this.
 
jon81uk said:
The broomstick coaster in gloomy wood would still be a good idea really.
Or something like a family thrill partially indoors mine cart themed coaster.
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Imagine if they did a broomstick coaster themed to generic witches and wizards. I'm sure it wouldn't be long before Warner Bros and Universal's lawyers started to sniff around!
 
Steve74 said:
Imagine if they did a broomstick coaster themed to generic witches and wizards. I'm sure it wouldn't be long before Warner Bros and Universal's lawyers started to sniff around!
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I know what you mean but generic witch stories have been around for yonks so I think the copyright lawyers would know better and tell others at the company to stop being idiots. There are already witch stories in most of the dungeons and Chessington had a wizard attraction since 2008 (now a witch attraction).

JAperson said:
yes but maybe not as a SW
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Why?

A well done broomstick coaster would have all the same rights to be as big as Thirteen or Air really, it would be a fairly unique concept, Flamingoland has bikes but its the only one in the UK, so would definitely be a fairly unique ride type.

In terms of rumoured attractions that never came to being built the broomstick coaster is the most unique and SW-like. Wickerman doesn't really have any of the hallmarks of an SW coaster, there is nothing really unique about it other than being the first new wooden coaster in the UK in over 20 years.

Edit to add, I never realised the broomstick plans were just fan-made fakes. Still a great concept though.
 
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jon81uk said:
Why?

A well done broomstick coaster would have all the same rights to be as big as Thirteen or Air really, it would be a fairly unique concept, Flamingoland has bikes but its the only one in the UK, so would definitely be a fairly unique ride type.
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You make a good point here. It is certainty possible for it to be an SW. I don't think it will be the next one though. Personally I think the next one will be more thrilling than wicker man. Maybe not a thrilling as some of the SW's however something with a slightly higher height restriction. Alton Towers are known around the UK for having the biggest rollercoasters a reputation they probably want to keep up. To me it seems likely Alton Towers will contiue to use there pattern of family then thrill for SW's they have done since Merlin took over. I may be proven wrong as I know the family market is lucrative however Alton Towers have always been a mix (perhaps one of the best mixes of its kind) between family and outright thrill I think Merlin would want to be able to capture both.

The other point is that do they really need another horror themed family coaster? Literally all of their 1.2m coasters are horror themed (thirteen and wicker man) which I have seen make kids cry. If they are going to do this it needs to be lightly themed (no pre-show or extensive scenery).
Edit: forgot to mention that the broomstick plan was mentioned by John Wardley and then people made fan recreations. We don't know how far through the process it got. But I'm sure it would have been marketable 'The first coaster where you ride on a broomstick!'
 
JAperson said:
The other point is that do they really need another horror themed family coaster? Literally all of their 1.2m coasters are horror themed (thirteen and wicker man) which I have seen make kids cry. If they are going to do this it needs to be lightly themed (no pre-show or extensive scenery)
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Thats also why broomsticks or similar could work, its not horror, witches are "scary" but can also be done very lighthearted.
 
jon81uk said:
Thats also why broomsticks or similar could work, its not horror, witches are "scary" but can also be done very lighthearted.
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I know when I was young I was terrified of anything like that however if it was done in a Harry Potter sort of way where the witches and wizards are just normal people it could work really well. Like you say light-hearted
 
I think I just feel I would like to see the next major investment at Alton being a non coaster ride. The park really does need some diversity after it was heavily slashed after the past 2 decades. Pretty much the only large investments in the last 15 years have been coasters.

Probably because they do bring in the most punters for the most part, but that is not to say other types of attractions do not bring in large bumps in visitors, they do, just not as much as coasters most of the time.

I guess the theory behind this with Merlin was that having coasters as pretty much the only form of major investment was an all most guaranteed way to maximise return for shareholders. A problem that no longer exists.
 
Benjsh said:
As amazing as it looks....I have often thought the Hagrid ride wold have worked better as a flying broomstick attraction. Not that what they opted for was a bad choice either though.
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I suspect it's because the Forbidden Journey ride is based on flying on a broomstick with Harry Potter and they wanted a variation. Although you're enclosed in your own chair with a high back and not in a broomstick riding position, your legs are dangling, giving a sort of flying/suspension feeling.
 
DistortAMG said:
I think I just feel I would like to see the next major investment at Alton being a non coaster ride. The park really does need some diversity after it was heavily slashed after the past 2 decades. Pretty much the only large investments in the last 15 years have been coasters.

Probably because they do bring in the most punters for the most part, but that is not to say other types of attractions do not bring in large bumps in visitors, they do, just not as much as coasters most of the time.

I guess the theory behind this with Merlin was that having coasters as pretty much the only form of major investment was an all most guaranteed way to maximise return for shareholders. A problem that no longer exists.
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The thing is all the SW's have been coasters and there has been major investments that are not SW's. If this was going to happen (which I hope it will at some point although I doubt it after Darren Brown) they would likely use some other code name and advertising system. Like you say though they will probably want something with a guaranteed return on investment which is not necessarily going to happen with something like a dark ride.
 
Steve74 said:
I suspect it's because the Forbidden Journey ride is based on flying on a broomstick with Harry Potter and they wanted a variation. Although you're enclosed in your own chair with a high back and not in a broomstick riding position, your legs are dangling, giving a sort of flying/suspension feeling.
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The pre-show in the queue sets it up that Hermione has made the benches fly. Guests are definitely on benches for FJ.

I think Hagrids would have benefitted from having all seats motorbikes maybe (I haven't ridden yet due to pandemic) but I also get that not all guests would be able to be seated in that way.
 
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