2019 General Election Poll and Discussion

[bluesonichd]

The Tories have revealed their spending plans, despite "no magic money tree" and our debt increasing under Tory rule, they want to borrow more! It's the hypocrisy that bothers me - apparently their borrowing is okay but the Greens or Labour borrowing is reckless?

And labour say they will borrow £400 billion !
Way more that Tories
Reckless !

 

[speedy]

And labour say they will borrow £400 billion !
Way more that Tories
Reckless !

Tories: £20bn a year
Labour: £55bn a year
Greens: £100bn a year

£20bn or 55bn is still increasing borrowing, when in the past 10 years our debt has increased under the tories. How is £20bn okay, but £55bn is not? Whats the maximum? Also you still haven't given a good reason why we should vote for Brexit or a good reason why anyone should vote Conservative that doesn't involve not voting Labour.

 

[Lurker]

Any one who critiqued labours spending plan last year (if I remember correctly it was 196billion) should also be critiquing the Tories. As their spending plan is now as high as it was for labour last year.

Investment sounds good though.

 

[Snagglemama]

We were all supposed to put up with austerity to decrease spending. Just saying

 

[Britford]

I'm forced, for a 3rd time in a row! to vote Tory just to protect democracy. I would prefer to vote Brexit party but I don't think it's worth risking Labour or Lib Dems getting in

I'm quite shocked to see the amount of people on here (or anywhere tbh) still supporting Labour and especially Lib Dems after everything that's gone on this past year.
It is my honest opinion that anyone who votes for the Lib Dems based on Brexit, is...(and i don't use this term lightly)
a traitor...actively going against one of the largest votes in recent history!
The country voted to leave, yet the "Liberal Democrats" are campaigning on a promise to cancel Brexit...no 2nd referendum no confirmatory vote of any kind, just go against the democratic will of the country and stop Brexit no questions asked...

Like, What do you think will happen if Brexit is just cancelled? All the "brexiteers" will just quietly go home and accept that they gave the wrong answer and so, were ignored?
Because the only way I can see this going...
(Keeping in mind that I obviously don't want this)
Is mass, violent, yellow vest style riots.

If The Lib Dems win, I genuinely can't see this going any other way...

 

[D4n]

What you, and so many other Brexiteers seem too (willfully) ignorant to acknowledge is that a general election *is* a public vote that is equally (well, far more, really) significant than the referendum. So if the Liberal Democrats were to win power, which is obviously not going to happen anyway but for arguments sake, then clearly there would be a mandate for their policy to cancel Brexit. It would be entirely clear that the will of the people had changed on that issue. Labour's policy is a bit murkier and of course there are other issues at stake here.

But to call people traitors just for voting for what they believe in is disgusting, dangerous rhetoric that I'm getting quite bored of hearing now. If the referendum had gone 52/48 the other way would anybody still voting for UKIP / The Brexit Party be getting labelled as traitors? Grow up mate.

 

[Alsty]

I'm quite shocked to see the amount of people on here (or anywhere tbh) still supporting Labour and especially Lib Dems after everything that's gone on this past year.
It is my honest opinion that anyone who votes for the Lib Dems based on Brexit, is...(and i don't use this term lightly)
a traitor...

I'm entitled to believe Brexit will do untold harm to this country, and therefore I'm allowed to voice that opinion and vote for a party that shares my opinion. That's how a democracy works. We don't call people traitors just for having different viewpoints, unless we've suddenly entered into an Orwellian world since 2016..?

 

[Rick]

I'm forced, for a 3rd time in a row! to vote Tory just to protect democracy. I would prefer to vote Brexit party but I don't think it's worth risking Labour or Lib Dems getting in

Although I disagree with your position, I want to understand what you mean here because it doesn't make sense to me. The person/party/limited company that you want to vote for does not accept that who you are going to vote for is offering a 'real' Brexit, whatever that means. If your definition of Brexit is that malleable, why wouldn't you accept the softest of Brexits, as proposed by Labour?

What do you want out of Brexit? You will note I have asked that question to a number of our most prominent and forthright of Brexiteers in the Brexit thread and got no response.

What you, and so many other Brexiteers seem too (willfully) ignorant to acknowledge is that a general election *is* a public vote that is equally (well, far more, really) significant than the referendum. So if the Liberal Democrats were to win power, which is obviously not going to happen anyway but for arguments sake, then clearly there would be a mandate for their policy to cancel Brexit. It would be entirely clear that the will of the people had changed on that issue. Labour's policy is a bit murkier and of course there are other issues at stake here.

Although I agree to a point, I think it's problematic to seek to change or manipulate the result of an (entirely flawed) referendum with a general election, with an electoral system that doesn't represent the vote of the electorate in the same way. Particularly given that the current official opposition party has a somewhat ambiguous position in terms of the outcome.

Theresa May went to the country in 2017 with a Brexit proposal that you could argue was entirely rejected by the voters with the loss of her majority (her government then propped up by a bunch who believe the world is 4,000 years old who represent an electorate that voted to remain). That said, it's hard to conclude if that's the case or not, because any vote at a general election brings personalities and policies into the fray to influence the vote.

unless we've suddenly entered into an Orwellian world since 2016..?

Sometime I wake up and think that we have.

 

[grrrr]

I'm quite shocked to see the amount of people on here (or anywhere tbh) still supporting Labour and especially Lib Dems after everything that's gone on this past year.
It is my honest opinion that anyone who votes for the Lib Dems based on Brexit, is...(and i don't use this term lightly)
a traitor...actively going against one of the largest votes in recent history!

You could say exactly the same for the ERG within the Conservatives.

There was a deal on the table. And yet... the ERG voted against that deal, and therefore against the wishes of the majority who voted to leave.

What do you say about that? Are the ERG traitors for not getting Brexit done at any cost? You surely can't be contemplating voting for a party who prevented Brexit from happening, can you?

the only way I can see this going...
Is mass, violent, yellow vest style riots.

That's what Brexiteers said would happen if we didn't leave on 29th of March. And on the 12th of April. And again on the 31st of October. But it's failed to materialise on each occasion.

Can't see what would change this time around.

 

[Britford]

What you, and so many other Brexiteers seem too (willfully) ignorant to acknowledge is that a general election *is* a public vote that is equally (well, far more, really) significant than the referendum. So if the Liberal Democrats were to win power, which is obviously not going to happen anyway but for arguments sake, then clearly there would be a mandate for their policy to cancel Brexit. It would be entirely clear that the will of the people had changed on that issue.

So if they win with like 35% (with an unknown amount voting for them regardless of Brexit policy) with the other 65% split between other parties, that would mean that over 50% of the country now wanted to cancel Brexit without referendum?
Even then the question of election is fundamentally different from "leave the EU, yes or no?' So much so that any conclusion drawn from this would legally count as speculation and while that still could be argued to have legal mandate, I would be very unnerved by any government stretching any legal definition like that.

But to call people traitors just for voting for what they believe in is disgusting, dangerous rhetoric that I'm getting quite bored of hearing now. If the referendum had gone 52/48 the other way would anybody still voting for UKIP / The Brexit Party be getting labelled as traitors? Grow up mate.

First of all, I would like to say that I wasn't calling anyone a traitor, I was saying that I would consider them traitors, there is a small but (in my opinion) important difference.

Anyway,
In that situation, voting for a party promising to leave the EU, wouldn't be as bad, I would argue that the party is operating in bad faith but because the previous vote of remaining would have already been honoured, it would be more akin to a new proposal...
What makes the Lib Dem situation so bad, is that there is still an outstanding vote that is being ignored.

I'm entitled to believe Brexit will do untold harm to this country, and therefore I'm allowed to voice that opinion and vote for a party that shares my opinion. That's how a democracy works. We don't call people traitors just for having different viewpoints, unless we've suddenly entered into an Orwellian world since 2016..?

While holding that opinion is perfectly fine...a referendum being blocked by parliament for years then being overturned by the people who lost said referendum, isn't what I would call "democracy"

You could say exactly the same for the ERG within the Conservatives.

There was a deal on the table. And yet... the ERG voted against that deal, and therefore against the wishes of the majority who voted to leave.

What do you say about that? Are the ERG traitors for not getting Brexit done at any cost? You surely can't be contemplating voting for a party who prevented Brexit from happening, can you?

the difference is that (as far as I can tell) they voted against the deal with the intention of still delivering Brexit...just not with that deal, so I wouldn't really call that treachery.

That's what Brexiteers said would happen if we didn't leave on 29th of March. And on the 12th of April. And again on the 31st of October. But it's failed to materialise on each occasion.

Can't see what would change this time around.

and on each of those occasions, there were nonviolent protests with the general disposition of each protest getting worse each time, if brexit is delayed again (outside of a delay to implement brexit) the protest would be even more impassioned and salty...but this time, it looks like Brexit is going to be cancelled outright and I think THAT, would be the breaking point for a lot of people.

Although I disagree with your position, I want to understand what you mean here because it doesn't make sense to me. The person/party/limited company that you want to vote for does not accept that who you are going to vote for is offering a 'real' Brexit, whatever that means. If your definition of Brexit is that malleable, why wouldn't you accept the softest of Brexits, as proposed by Labour?

I think it's easier to read "not a real Brexit" as "Brexit in name only" the issue with Boris's deal, is that while we technically leave the EU we are still subject to EU rule and when we are still being told what we can and can't do by Brussels...have we really left...
Anyway,
I want to vote Brexit Party because I think that no deal is better than Boris's deal but After all that's happened, I just think it's best to cut off all ties to the EU lest either the remainer mps or the EU themselves try anything funny...like they have been for the past year...(is that not a reasonable concern at this point?)
I also acknowledge that unless Brexit party or Tory get in, there might not even be a Brexit and since it looks like the Brexit party simply can't win, I think its wise to at least get Boris's deal then work from there.

Ask for labour, after everything they have pulled, I simply don't trust them!

I also hate the idea of a 2nd referendum, even ignoringng Labours reputation for voting shenanigans I still wouldn't want a 2nd referendum...mainly because if we can be made to vote a 2nd time...why not a 3rd, or 4th, or however many it takes for us to give the correct answer...and once multiple votes have become a legal precedent...all it takes is 1 corrupt party!

What do you want out of Brexit? You will note I have asked that question to a number of our most prominent and forthright of Brexiteers in the Brexit thread and got no response.

Sorry about that...

What I want out of brexit, is to simply be free of the EU I want the UK to not be subject to EU rules and laws and have the highest authority of the UK...be in the UK where we can see and change it as we see fit!

That's why I would prefer no deal, because it gets that done quickly and doesn't leave a transition period in which things could go awry or be interfered with (again, after the past 3 years, I think that's a reasonable fear)

All that said, for me, at least, it stopped (mainly) being about brexit a long time ago...now its more about just seeing the democratic will of the people, be realised, and I genuinely think that's way more important than leaving the EU, the people voted to leave, so we need to leave...or voting is meaningless...

 

[Jb85]

Interesting to see that despite the Corbyn hate labour are winning our poll

From what I see nationwide our poll seems to be mirroring that of the people. A lot of people I speak to will be voting labour as they don’t believe Lib Dem’s to be a serious party and don’t want another conservative government. It’s nothing to do with the leader, more of a protest vote

 

[bluesonichd]

From what I see nationwide our poll seems to be mirroring that of the people. A lot of people I speak to will be voting labour as they don’t believe Lib Dem’s to be a serious party and don’t want another conservative government. It’s nothing to do with the leader, more of a protest vote

Every poll I see is confirming that blue the are only party that will win. The correct and only choice for anyone to vote.

 

[Alsty]

The correct and only choice for anyone to vote.

 

[Benzin]

Make a 2nd referendum binding instead of advisory and there's the solution...

Stops people from being dodgy (one Leave campaign would be charged if it had been binding), and I think would at least force a real choice to be brought forward rather than the murky ideas originally campaigned for then thrown in the bin...

Again though, democracy involves having the ability for people to change their mind on things... Hence I think why May's GE resulted in a loss of majority (held up by the awful DUP who are finding themselves thrown under a bus by Boris, akin to the Lib Dems of the coalition), as many who were angered by the reveals of those involved in Leave campaign basically changing tact...

A democracy that doesn't consider the changes over nearly 4 years of political and social change isn't a democracy at all...

Have there been many protests since Halloween? Or have they been postponed until after the election?

As for the Tories, well it's no surprise that the investigation into Russian involvement and that business woman Boris has about have been suspended during the election... However the media is being it's usual self:

It's no wonder the country is a resounding mess...

 

[Stuntman707]

I don't agree with all their policies but i'm voting for the Green party based on principles and the only honest party left in my opinion. Asides from their extreme environmental policy, thier other policies are generally in favour of a fairer system. They are in favour of voting reform, to make every vote count. They want to resolve the parlimentary deadlock on Brexit through a final vote of the people. Yes they are in favour of remain, but democracy is one of their core values.

Lib dems can't be trusted after they turned on their voters last time they pledged to keep low tuition fees. It's very likely going to be a hung parliament and Swinson is burning any chance of a coalition with Labour or Tories.

Labour have been a hugely divided party recently. Their reluctance to work with any other party has caused so many problems trying to resolve Brexit. They still have the arrogance to believe that they can win a majority. Corbyn has just been as stubborn as a mule even when Johnson came back with an "impossible" new deal.

After everything the Tories have done and the deaths they have caused as a result, i'm surprised such a high percentage will still vote for them. Cameron's referendum has caused the worst division i've ever seen in this country. The bedroom tax and universal credit forcing record numbers to seek help from charity and food banks. May's handling of the Grenfell tradgedy has shown the Tories true colours towards the poor in our society. There are still buildings with the same hydrogen cyanide cladding!! Cuts in Police have led to criminals running riot on scooters and knife crime. I hear of a stabbing every week in the news. As one was running round the Arndale lunging at people, another teenager died in London. Rees-Mogg's disgusting Victorian attitude towards the working class. Cries from the emergancy services fall on deaf ears. Johnson is known for being nothing but a liar. The fact most people are STILL OK with voting for Tories, this is what's truely and disturbingly wrong with this country.

 

[grrrr]

the difference is that (as far as I can tell) they voted against the deal with the intention of still delivering Brexit...just not with that deal, so I wouldn't really call that treachery.

Labour voted against the deal because they want to deliver brexit with a better deal, providing that the people of the UK want that deal. I don't see how you can class that as being a 'traitor' - actually asking the people of our country what they want, rather than just pressing ahead blindly.

on each of those occasions, there were nonviolent protests with the general disposition of each protest getting worse each time, if brexit is delayed again (outside of a delay to implement brexit) the protest would be even more impassioned and salty...

Just a quick comparison. Pro-brexit march in Whitehall, October 31st:

People's vote / anti-brexit march around the same time:

To me, it looks like "the will of the people" has changed, significantly. Why not put it back to the people in a confirmatory referendum?

I also hate the idea of a 2nd referendum, even ignoringng Labours reputation for voting shenanigans I still wouldn't want a 2nd referendum...mainly because if we can be made to vote a 2nd time...why not a 3rd, or 4th, or however many it takes for us to give the correct answer

Because the vote was only ever advisory, NOT binding. It was also a pretty close thing, I wouldn't say there was a clear mandate for brexit given a 48/52 split - this is probably the only thing I've ever agreed with Farage about: when it looked like remain would win the referendum by the same narrow margin, he said "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way", and only a clear two-thirds victory would actually settle the discussion. He quickly changed his tune though...

Now that we know what the outcome of a brexit deal (or a no-deal exit) looks like, why not have a confirmatory referendum? If you're so sure that the people of the UK actually want this, then surely there's no harm in having a second referendum, because it will surely go your way?

 

[bluesonichd]

This man is a disgrace, people want him as PM yet he has no respect for those that died for us.

 

[Plastic Person]

You could argue he at least has a bit more respect left for those still alive today, but I fear this thread is about to just turn into a black hole of ideological bickering. But let it be said that The Sun is a Murdoch rag whose idea of the 'general public' itself is incredibly dubious, and nobody actually says things like "spectacular own goal" unless they're a journalist.

 

[DiogoJ42]

Looks like the Brexit Party will not run against Tory seats, to avoid splitting the vote. I think that's just assured Boris victory.

 

[speedy]

This man is a disgrace, people want him as PM yet he has no respect for those that died for us.

I saw a video of him laying a reef down yesterday. What are you on about. Oh yeah, this is the same press that attacked Corbyn for sleeping on a train while the rugby was on