2019 General Election Poll and Discussion

[Rob]

Everyone's favourite election activity is back : Watching politicians pretending to be real people by doing real people tasks badly.



Can't wait until competitive eating week. I hope they have to tackle hot dogs!

I think a more effective strategy here would have been to turn Boris on his head and use his mop of hair to clear up the water.

 

[Benjsh]

This election is turning very toxic. You only have to look at facebook to see that

Being on facebook was your first clue (and mistake).

 

[Alsty]

Good old Farage, everybody* loves him


* might not be true

 

[Britford]

I still struggle with Brexit being completed "in whatever form that takes" - a Labour Brexit would be entirely different to that proposed by Johnson, a Johnson negotiated Brexit would be entirely different to the one proposed by Farage (the one last week, not this week). So different, that only a portmanteau brings them together, therefore the "referendum contract will be completed" in a way that doesn't reflect what a huge number of the 17.4 million signatories signed up for.

yes it would, the question was simply, "leave" or "remain" all of those listed options would result in leaving the EU.

Then your expectations of the vote were categorically wrong.

Wouldn't you like to have another vote where the result is legally binding, particularly now that we're all much clearer about what is on the table?

As it stands, an unprecedented number of citizens have come together to "advise" that they want to leave the EU and a large minority of citizens have "advised" that they would like to stay, both under the garrentee of the entire political class, that the majority opinion would be passed.
That creates a sort of unwritten social contract between the people and government that regardless of what "the book" says, the winning vote will be enacted!
Now, they have broken that contract and are using a separate, legal, contract as justification. And I find that to be unacceptable, why should any of us ever vote again, if they can just make excuses to ignore our vote?

You're still ignoring the fact that your democracy voted based on misinformation and lies.

This is why we should vote again, not because we don't like the result.

https://brexposed.uk/liars/

Then why don't we permanently shut down all government while we repeat this current election forever?
Since it's an impossibility to get through an election cycle without someone spreading misinformation at some point and due to the nature of elections, any misinformation is capable of meaningfully altering votes...should we repeat it because we voted based on misinformation? What about next time? And the time after that, and so on...

Also, what is "my democracy" And is it any different from "democracy"?
And if you don't mind me asking, what is your personalised democracy?

The referendum was advisory, as such it means nothing. It was a suggestion to follow a path, we followed that path for the last 3 years no matter how high the expenses got, no matter the disasters that befell us. It's time to ask the public again and see how things have changed.

Oh yeah, those expenses and disasters that were caused by parliament forcing us to keep taking extension after extension in a blatant and disgusting attempt to stop us from leaving.
It seems to be the current plan...keep us in limbo until we get desperate and give up.

 

[Tom]

Oh yeah, those expenses and disasters that were caused by parliament forcing us to keep taking extension after extension in a blatant and disgusting attempt to stop us from leaving.
It seems to be the current plan...keep us in limbo until we get desperate and give up.

The last parliament (just dissolved) was put in place by a (relatively) democratic vote. As was the last one in 2015. The Conservative Party seems to want to ask the people again every time it doesn't get the result it wants. We're supposed to have elections every 5 years, not every two because the Conservative Party wants to increase - or try and get - a majority.

 

[Stuie]

Also, what is "my democracy" And is it any different from "democracy"?
And if you don't mind me asking, what is your personalised democracy?

Your democracy is us having to stick to what people voted for 3 years ago without full and correct information.

My democracy is asking the people again, after the deal has been put on the table and all the lies and bullshit has been exposed.

 

[grrrr]

parliament forcing us to keep taking extension after extension in a blatant and disgusting attempt to stop us from leaving.

Or, as I've mentioned before, the ERG forcing us to take extension after extension because they wouldn't vote for the deal being proposed by their own damn party. You can't blame the lack of brexit on the remainers - the leavers haven't got their act together in order to put forward a deal that the majority of people can actually support.

As it stands, an unprecedented number of citizens have come together to "advise" that they want to leave the EU and a large minority of citizens have "advised" that they would like to stay, both under the garrentee of the entire political class, that the majority opinion would be passed.
That creates a sort of unwritten social contract between the people and government that regardless of what "the book" says, the winning vote will be enacted!

My issue is that yes, a majority of people voted to leave, that's a fact. But what wasn't wasn't clear at the time and really still isn't clear now, is exactly what "leaving" means. Did it mean a single market and customs union, as promised by some of the Vote Leave camp (including, at one point, Boris), or did it mean a total no-deal exit? Is there actually a majority of people who agree on what sort of brexit we should have? If the Tories can't agree amongst themselves, then how can you expect the general public to have a consensus.

Now that we know what they actual options are - the government deal, no deal or remain - why don't we put that back to the public to confirm in a binding referendum?

 

[Lurker]

Oh yeah, those expenses and disasters that were caused by parliament forcing us to keep taking extension after extension in a blatant and disgusting attempt to stop us from leaving.
It seems to be the current plan...keep us in limbo until we get desperate and give up.

I thought one of the main pillars of Brexit was to restore decision making powers and sovereignty to the British Parliment.

The MPs were elected after the referendum, so their duty to put forward their opinion on brexit, and vote in the way they think is best for the country is paramount.

Don't forget even the most ardent brexiteers were voting down the deal. It's not because the parliment is pushing for remain, it's because they are vying for multiple positions with no majority. That means it's hard for progress to be made.

It's propaganda that there is a us Vs parliment situation, spun my Johnson. In reality, it couldn't be further from the truth.

It's also worth remembering, May had a majority. She only needed the DUP on board, as well as her own party, and an deal could have easily have been done. May couldn't even do this. It didn't matter how Labour or Remainers were voting, the conservatives held the majority.

The deal is bad for the country, and no amount of shifting boarders and breaking up the union (the only thing Johnson did) will help the deal which is 95%+ what May had.

If the deal passes we continue with uncertainty, there will be the transition period, at the end of which it could be extended, we could continue alignment with the EU, or we could crash out no deal. Only a very small chance of a proper trade deal being done in that small time.

 

[BarryZola]

I think the general idea was that we try to negotiate a good deal for ourselves with the EU and then if they were not willing to do a decent deal with us then we would leave with no deal. However, every time we came closer to a deadline without a decent deal some remainer MP would get a bill rushed through in 48 hours to make it illegal to leave without a deal, which basically left us in limbo. Let's not brush over this and pretend it never happened.

 

[Lurker]

I think the general idea was that we try to negotiate a good deal for ourselves with the EU and then if they were not willing to do a decent deal with us then we would leave with no deal. However, every time we came closer to a deadline without a decent deal some remainer MP would get a bill rushed through in 48 hours to make it illegal to leave without a deal, which basically left us in limbo. Let's not brush over this and pretend it never happened.

It's a good point, I'd not considered those bills. Though my points remain the same.

No majority for that path
parliamentary sovereignty
Unclear mandate on what Brexit is and what constitutes a good deal.

The MPs didn't stop brexit from happening, they simply changed the form brexit would take.

 

[grrrr]

I think the general idea was that we try to negotiate a good deal for ourselves with the EU and then if they were not willing to do a decent deal with us then we would leave with no deal.

This was never what the majority of the Vote Leave camp claimed. Don't you remember being told:

- that negotiating the deal would be "the easiest in history" (Liam Fox)
- that "a trade deal with the EU could be sorted out in an afternoon" (Gerrard Batten, UKIP)
- "You can be sure there will be a deal, whether it's the deal I want which is the free trade agreement, the customs agreement and so on" (David Davis)
- "The day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards and can choose whatever path we want" (Michael Gove)
- "There is NO PLAN for no-deal because we are going to get a great deal" (Boris Johnson)

Who exactly was pushing the "no-deal is a good idea" line before Brexit? I don't remember anyone credible saying publicly that no-deal is what was on the table.

And again, the 'remainer MPS' were elected AFTER the vote to leave, so this is literally the parliamentary sovereignty that the brexiteers wanted.

 

[Lurker]

In other news, Hospital A&E wait times have exceeded all records and are higher than ever before. One in six patients now wait more than four hours, a travesty caused by year upon year of conservative cuts.

Where did the money they cut go?

 

[DiogoJ42]

It's not that leave MPs can't agree on a deal. (Ok, that's part of it). It's that Europe won't agree to anything reasonable. They don't want any other to country start getting ideas. They want to punish us, like a bitter ex wife in a divorce.

 

[Alsty]

The EU won't agree to anything better than what we have know, if that's what you mean. Why would they give a better deal to non-members than their members?

 

[Stuie]

This was never what the majority of the Vote Leave camp claimed. Don't you remember being told:

- that negotiating the deal would be "the easiest in history" (Liam Fox)
- that "a trade deal with the EU could be sorted out in an afternoon" (Gerrard Batten, UKIP)
- "You can be sure there will be a deal, whether it's the deal I want which is the free trade agreement, the customs agreement and so on" (David Davis)
- "The day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards and can choose whatever path we want" (Michael Gove)
- "There is NO PLAN for no-deal because we are going to get a great deal" (Boris Johnson)

Who exactly was pushing the "no-deal is a good idea" line before Brexit? I don't remember anyone credible saying publicly that no-deal is what was on the table.

And again, the 'remainer MPS' were elected AFTER the vote to leave, so this is literally the parliamentary sovereignty that the brexiteers wanted.

grrrreat post @grrrr

 

[grrrr]

It's not that leave MPs can't agree on a deal.

No, that's literally it. "Leave" was such a vague and esoteric concept, that there is just no mandate from politicians nor the public about what form it should take.

If the main objective was simply to leave, then there was a deal on the table and there were five opportunities to implement that deal (which doesn't involve free movement, or a customs agreement - two of the biggest sticking points for brexiteers). But instead of uniting to deliver brexit, there was wrangling by the vote leave MPs who only care about their own interests and careers, not what's best for the country.

 

[Benzin]

Given that most of our red lines went against the main EU principles, are we surprised that we were getting a worse deal than the current one?

They weren't going to give us freedom of movement and no bill to pay... Especially given our government's lack of consideration towards expats from both sides and the Irish border issue...

 

[Lurker]

Johnson's half baked plan to appear human by doing today's human activity (working behind a bakery counter) has taken an unfortunate turn, as Flaky Boris had to run to the hills (or the next nearest bakery for a photo op uninterrupted) for fear of protestors.

The prime minister says the crowd represented a security concern. Despite totally peaceful men, women and children simply holding some signs.

The MP Johnson was due to meet waited for an hour for his visit, presumably not informed of the change of plan.

 

[Rick]

Quite an astonishing allegation from Farage with regards to peerages;

 

[Stuntman707]

The government and parties are having to fight unprecedented cyber attacks in this election. Misinformation and outside influences are really damaging to our democracy. People sharing info graphs with no sources. Biased news sites playing with words. You can’t take anything at face value, everything online needs to be fact checked. Most people take what they see at face value. We are very much in a cyber war, the scary part is we don’t know who the enemies are and a lot of people will be unaware it’s even happening.
Highly recommend watching this series: