Coronavirus

[Craig]

Yup while the testing option would potentially allow people to travel without being vaccinated, again it creates an unfair situation where the young would almost certainly be required to fork out for testing on each trip, against others who would be able to travel without issue off the back of a vaccination which had been administered for free.

If there was fair and sensible pricing for testing, then perhaps I'd be a little more open to the idea. But at £120 a pop if a PCR test is required, that's not a viable option for many.

 

[delta79]

If secondary schools and college carry on testing then they could use it for the 'covid19 passport'. That would zero the cost for young people in education.


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[tayspru]

But at £120 a pop if a PCR test is required, that's not a viable option for many.

Its something that will just have to be built into the price of a holiday - nobody needs to be travelling abroad in the immediate future while there is a global pandemic that is yet to be fully controlled . A vaccine passport and testing requirements is completely understandable given the circumstance. It’s also a system that the U.K. really need to be on the same page as the rest of the world , given we are an island nation and now have *no* right to enter EU countries if they don’t want us there

 

[D4n]

Its something that will just have to be built into the price of a holiday - nobody needs to be travelling abroad in the immediate future while there is a global pandemic that is yet to be fully controlled . A vaccine passport and testing requirements is completely understandable given the circumstance. It’s also a system that the U.K. really need to be on the same page as the rest of the world , given we are an island nation and now have *no* right to enter EU countries if they don’t want us there

Young people are at the back of the vaccine queue.
They are also the least likely to be able to afford this additional cost.

If nobody *needs* to travel between countries at present, then I don't see why the elderly, who have already been vaccinated, should be allowed to do so whilst those who haven't been offered the vaccine yet are penalised yet again.

As I have stated before, it's penalising the same group of people twice - not offering them the vaccine, then placing additional restrictions on their movement / additional costs BECAUSE of that first penalty.

It is so, so unfair and the backlash to such a decision would be severe.

 

[Craig]

Nobody needs to go out and see friends, nobody needs to eat anything other than bland food with the nutrition required to function.

But that's the problem, we're humans and we want to live not just exist. To some a holiday is essential for their mental health, I know it is for mine having worked and slept in the same room for the best part of a year. People work hard to get away from what's been an awful past year or so, and someone's age (especially when statistically they're more likely to be low paid) should not mean they have to factor in an additional three figure sum to get a test when others who are older don't require it as they're vaccinated.

 

[Poisson]

I can see it being viable when the vaccines have caught up. Honestly don't see why we don't require one all the time for common diseases as well as rona

 

[Thameslink Rail]

I can see it being viable when the vaccines have caught up. Honestly don't see why we don't require one all the time for common diseases as well as rona

To an extent we do, especially if you are going to a poorer country you may be required to have vaccinations against yellow fever, typhoid or cholera
Travel vaccinations - NHS (www.nhs.uk)

 

[tayspru]

Just to add some context , I’m a young adult and work in the travel industry , so I do very much depend on holidays happening pretty soon . The fact is we’re not looking at any meaningful travel until late Summer as it is , so most people will actually have been offered vaccines by the time travel is an option . I’d 1000x rather it be safe to travel , and we put in measures to allow for that, than we just let anyone travel without any restrictions.

 

[Craig]

Just to add some context , I’m a young adult and work in the travel industry , so I do very much depend on holidays happening pretty soon . The fact is we’re not looking at any meaningful travel until late Summer as it is , so most people will actually have been offered vaccines by the time travel is an option . I’d 1000x rather it be safe to travel , and we put in measures to allow for that, than we just let anyone travel without any restrictions.

That's the problem though, most being offered the vaccine means not everyone has had a chance to receive it. If we're looking at June for 1st doses for all adults, then that's anything up to September for the second dose for the youngest. Even with that, we don't yet know what the rules would be for vaccine passports. Would people have to wait two weeks after a final dose? Would just the first dose be acceptable? That potentially leaves a lot of young people without the ability to travel abroad while others can. I'd potentially be cutting it fine at 36 if they went down the route of second dose and two weeks, never-mind those in their teens and twenties.

Whatever is decided in terms of vaccine passports/travel restrictions my point remains the same. Every single UK citizen must have an equitable chance to obtain the vaccine before any sort of 'passport' is put in place. Until that happens, under no circumstances should the government be determining individual freedoms by vaccination status. It's creating a class system, and it's a recipe for disaster.

 

[Danza91]

Totally agree with Craig here. The issue here isn't that vaccines for travel is a thing - I had to have yellow fever, rabies, and a bunch of boosters before I did some travelling a few years ago - it's penalising/restricting those who haven't yet had the chance to get vaccinated even further.

There will be plenty of people like me who look after themselves, exercise a lot, balanced diet etc. who are at the back of the vaccine queue and arguably understandably given most U30s have something daft like a 0.0004% chance of dying from COVID. However young people have probably been penalised the most throughout this pandemic, especially when it comes to jobs as more young people work in hospitality. Without repeating the reasons Craig et al. have already mentioned it is simply not fair if they are penalised further.

Then let's not get started on the issues it'll throw if there are people who have health conditions from choosing to live unhealthily but they'll already be vaccinated ahead of others and able to jet off to the Mediterranean or wherever. There has to be a fair solution.

 

[tayspru]

They’re fair points , but the other thing is it’s ultimately not up to our government . They can’t force other places to let us in, and other countries are definitely understanding that for now , a public health crisis remains a priority over holidays for young people.

The only thing our government would achieve by not having vaccine passports is that nobody can go anywhere at all, which would help nobody.

 

[Matt.GC]

Sorry, only just caught up on this thread. For clarity, I wasn't trying to be an ass about the vaccine and putting people off from having it because it made me feel awful. There was a lot of back ground to it.

Months ago, I was of the view that people like me, of very low risk from getting ill, should have government money wasted on them to be vaccinated in the first place. I'm a working man, always have been, and I feel guilty even going to the doctor's or calling the police through wasting public money and it's always been my wish that the money would be better spent ensuring those that are vulnerable are safe. My plan was always to avoid Covid in the first place and avoid contact (as much as possible within my line of work) with people that would be vulnerable to it.

I suddenly found myself in group 6 and being invited for a jab, before others close to me that are in far more physically vulnerable positions. On phoning my GP, I found out that I was only in group 6 because I had previously been detained against my will under the Mental Health Act. Politically, that classed me as being someone with a "severe mental health condition" and thus lumped in group 6.

Although I find that crazy, as I'm in good physical health as far as Covid is concerned, I spoke with those close to me who are really in far more need than me. We came to the conclusion that by not going, my jab could be wasted, I could contract and infect someone else, I come in to contact with vulnerable people most days as I've worked throughout the last year and that I could be put to the back of the queue of therefore not be able to go anywhere in the summer long after most others have been vaccinated (kind of a "you'll be called in few weeks anyway" thing).

I still feel guilty for even having it, let alone the timing of it so that probably makes me feel even more miserable at the fact it made me feel so bad when I didn't even think I should've had it in the first place. I'm certainly not against the vaccinations and would encourage anyone to go and get it done. Just be aware that the AZ can make you feel rather ill.

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[Craig]

They’re fair points , but the other thing is it’s ultimately not up to our government . They can’t force other places to let us in, and other countries are definitely understanding that for now , a public health crisis remains a priority over holidays for young people.

The only thing our government would achieve by not having vaccine passports is that nobody can go anywhere at all, which would help nobody.

Yup I understand that, but it is our government who have currently made it illegal for anyone to travel abroad for anything but essential purposes. It's not so much what other countries do, although I'd disagree with a similar approach from them - it's not something we can affect. My issue is with the possibility of our own government selectively permitting travel abroad according to vaccination status before every UK citizen has been offered the opportunity to have the vaccine.

You can't move from an "all in this together" approach to the pandemic to allowing Margaret to have her fortnight in Alicante just because she's had her vaccination. When others have not had the opportunity it creates the potential for a lot of unrest, protests and what would arguably the most concerning - a complete lack of adherence to national restrictions should they be required in future.

 

[Benjsh]

Yup I understand that, but it is our government who have currently made it illegal for anyone to travel abroad for anything but essential purposes. It's not so much what other countries do, although I'd disagree with a similar approach from them - it's not something we can affect. My issue is with the possibility of our own government selectively permitting travel abroad according to vaccination status before every UK citizen has been offered the opportunity to have the vaccine.

You can't move from an "all in this together" approach to the pandemic to allowing Margaret to have her fortnight in Alicante just because she's had her vaccination. When others have not had the opportunity it creates the potential for a lot of unrest, protests and what would arguably the most concerning - a complete lack of adherence to national restrictions should they be required in future.

This is where I see the whole plan unravelling into a huge mess. Like you I agree that they probably should just tell everyone that until September / October foreign travel is off limits for everyone regardless if you have had your vaccine or not. The fairness issue is obviously a huge factor in this but also just a common sense one too. We're still learning about covid 19 and these new variants so foreign holidays can wait for me.

On the other hand these big airlines, some of which no doubt contribute to the Tory party funding, will 100% be pressuring them to allow them fly the older generation abroad as soon as they jabbed and ready to fly.

 

[Sharko]

Good news is that the Pfizer vaccine is able to neutralise all 3 variants of concern, ie the U.K. one, the South African one and the Brazil one

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2102017

edit: note the study is based on the two doses of the vaccine

What do we think the chances of the AZ vaccine doing this as well? I wouldn't have thought it would be too different.

 

[Poisson]

It's very much a case of we're being kept in vs not accepted elsewhere. There's several countries (e.g. Poland) that would happily let you in with a negative PCR test

 

[Vik]

This is where I see the whole plan unravelling into a huge mess. Like you I agree that they probably should just tell everyone that until September / October foreign travel is off limits for everyone regardless if you have had your vaccine or not. The fairness issue is obviously a huge factor in this but also just a common sense one too. We're still learning about covid 19 and these new variants so foreign holidays can wait for me.

Even that has the potential to cause unrest though. People are fed up now of being told what they consider to be lies. We were told that once the vulnerable and elderly were vaccinated then we can look forward to a summer of fun, or something to that effect. Now most have been done, there are attempts to roll back on that now and suggest we need to vaccinate everyone first.

A conversation I have had with a few people over the last few days revolves around the suggestion that, despite the fact we will be quite well advanced in terms of people vaccinated by Summer (mid July), (as suggested by the vaccine calculator, those in their 40s should be getting their first jab in May and second late August, or June & September if you are in your 30's), we will be in a worse situation regarding freedoms to do normal things such as meeting friends in pubs, going abroad, than we were at the same time last year.

After all the promises we've been given, this is deemed unacceptable. So the powers that be need to be very careful, not just what they do, but what they don't do too, and should remember, they govern by consent, which is eroding fast, despite what opinion polls say.

One thing that does concern me as more and more people get vaccinated is the amount of chitter chatter regarding the negative effects it has on people (To note, this is just second hand gossip picked up from general day to day pottering about, trips to supermarket, work, chatting with neighbours over the garden fence etc, and not social media which has been full of this stuff even before there was a vaccine). I'm hearing it all the time now, all the stories of woe, and encouraging others to not get it as they will be ill for weeks or even die. I find this irresponsible at best. It doesn't phase me in the slightest, I will get by jab, I can cope with a 'cold' for a couple of days if need be, but there will be plenty of people who will be put off by all this, and with more and more getting vaccinated, the more of these over exaggerated stories we will hear and the increased potential for putting others off getting it.

 

[Benjsh]

Even that has the potential to cause unrest though. People are fed up now of being told what they consider to be lies. We were told that once the vulnerable and elderly were vaccinated then we can look forward to a summer of fun, or something to that effect. Now most have been done, there are attempts to roll back on that now and suggest we need to vaccinate everyone first.

A conversation I have had with a few people over the last few days revolves around the suggestion that, despite the fact we will be quite well advanced in terms of people vaccinated by Summer (mid July), (as suggested by the vaccine calculator, those in their 40s should be getting their first jab in May and second late August, or June & September if you are in your 30's), we will be in a worse situation regarding freedoms to do normal things such as meeting friends in pubs, going abroad, than we were at the same time last year.

After all the promises we've been given, this is deemed unacceptable. So the powers that be need to be very careful, not just what they do, but what they don't do too, and should remember, they govern by consent, which is eroding fast, despite what opinion polls say.

One thing that does concern me as more and more people get vaccinated is the amount of chitter chatter regarding the negative effects it has on people (To note, this is just second hand gossip picked up from general day to day pottering about, trips to supermarket, work, chatting with neighbours over the garden fence etc, and not social media which has been full of this stuff even before there was a vaccine). I'm hearing it all the time now, all the stories of woe, and encouraging others to not get it as they will be ill for weeks or even die. I find this irresponsible at best. It doesn't phase me in the slightest, I will get by jab, I can cope with a 'cold' for a couple of days if need be, but there will be plenty of people who will be put off by all this, and with more and more getting vaccinated, the more of these over exaggerated stories we will hear and the increased potential for putting others off getting it.

You have made the cardinal sin that everyone seems to make on this subject. It's not just about whether you've been vaccinated or not. What about all the people abroad who haven't yet been that you could be potentially mixing with?

The Vaccine does not stop you getting Covid and therefore spreading it. In fact my understanding of it is that your chances of getting it are the exact same with or without the jab. The major difference comes in the fact you're clearly far more unlikely to be hospitalised after having the jab. That's why it is so important we all get one.

So to answer you it's not about keeping us all locked up. It's about keeping this thing under more control so we don't have to continue to live our lives like this.

 

[Rob]

A conversation I have had with a few people over the last few days revolves around the suggestion that, despite the fact we will be quite well advanced in terms of people vaccinated by Summer (mid July), (as suggested by the vaccine calculator, those in their 40s should be getting their first jab in May and second late August, or June & September if you are in your 30's), we will be in a worse situation regarding freedoms to do normal things such as meeting friends in pubs, going abroad, than we were at the same time last year.

After all the promises we've been given, this is deemed unacceptable. So the powers that be need to be very careful, not just what they do, but what they don't do too, and should remember, they govern by consent, which is eroding fast, despite what opinion polls say.

Admitedly false promises have been made before, but the roadmap makes it pretty clear that we should have more freedoms come the summer than we had last year. The dates could get pushes back by a few weeks if things are not going as planned, but even if the May and June dates got pushed back by 2 or 3 weeks you would still be looking a pretty normal July/August.

I cannot see the government ripping up their roadmap unless something completely unexpected happens.

The Vaccine does not stop you getting Covid and therefore spreading it. In fact my understanding of it is that your chances of getting it are the exact same with or without the jab. The major difference comes in the fact you're clearly far more unlikely to be hospitalised after having the jab. That's why it is so important we all get one.

I don't have them to hand, but there have been studies that show that vaccines do stop you getting Covid and therefore do reduce tranmission. The chances of getting it with or without the jab are absolutely not the same! However there will be people who have had the vaccine that will still become infected with Covid, but there is a lower chance of them becoming seriously ill. You just have to look at the infection rates in the older age groups at the moment to see the impact that the vacccine is having (Craig posted a good overview of these last week I think).

 

[Craig]

Yup, your potential to be exposed to Covid doesn't reduce with a vaccine, it's still the same amount of virus in the air from an infected person. But your body's ability to fight off the virus and prevent it replicating and taking hold is increased. That's where the risk of hospitalisation is lower, as early data has been suggesting. If your viral load is lower, then there's obviously the potential for you to be less infectious too. There's early promising studies on this front, but the amount of data required to make an accurate assessment isn't there yet.

So yes, a vaccine does reduce many factors of risk associated with Covid, but does not prevent it and likely never will. So that's where the question about staying "locked up" comes in. The risk can't be eliminated, only reduced. So at what point do you release the restrictions placed on the public? As Vik mentioned, promises were made about those restrictions being lifted when the vulnerable were vaccinated, then the goalposts were seemingly moved further down the line. That's where the government need to be very careful to explain the reasons why, and be aware of the limited patience people have the longer this goes on.

That's where my argument over international travel restrictions come from. If the restrictions remain in place for all with good reason then so be it. But when you start picking and choosing who is able legally to travel, or have the freedom to do other things - then it becomes a serious issue affecting the ability to get buy in if restrictions have to be reimplemented in future